Preamble

The House met at Eleven o'clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

PRIVATE BUSINESS

BIRMINGHAM CORPORATION BILL

Read the Third time and passed.

Orders of the Day — AGRICULTURAL IMPROVEMENT GRANTS BILL

Order for Third Reading read.

11.5 a.m.

Mr. Marcus Kimball: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
I hope that this Bill will be passed speedily, in view of the interest which there seems to be in a Bill in slightly lower place on the Order Paper and of whose merits it may take some time to convince hon. Members. The Bill has been welcomed by the Government, who have provided a Financial Resolution for it, by the farming community throughout England, Scotland and Wales, and by the three National Farmers' Unions, and the whole of the farming Press.
It is purely a tidying-up Measure giving the right to people who are already drawing grants under the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts to apply for those grants under the system of standard costs which already apply and which are so popular under the Agriculture Act, 1947.
As the House knows, standard costs have the great merit that they cut out paper work and time sheets and the need for farmers to produce invoices, which, after the passing of the Cheques Act, is sometimes somewhat difficult to do in country areas. The main point about standard costs is that a farmer's own labour now ranks for grant. The Bill contains a provision which will be welcomed especially in Lincolnshire because it extends the system of standard

costs to other Government grants already in existence, notably for field drainage, measures against pests—and we have in mind capital improvements such as the construction of rabbit proof fences—and reclamation and grubbing up of scrub.
The adoption of standard costs will not involve the Government in any additional expenditure. In fact, standard costs are the cheapest way of getting the work done, because they make no allowance for profits or overheads, and the agreed charge on which each standard cost is based is the actual cost of the material and labour. The House will agree that this is the most economic way of getting improvements made.
I am most grateful for the support and co-operation which I have had from hon. Members opposite. It is only because of their support that the Bill has had such a speedy passage in its early stages. I am also very grateful for the forbearance of my hon. Friends who represent agricultural interests and who are very enthusiastic in their support for the Bill, but who have allowed it to pass on Fridays without saying much about it I am particularly grateful for the encouragement and enthusiasm of my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary and his right hon. Friend, who have given their blessing to the Bill, and for the unofficial and private help which I have had from the officials in their Department.
In view of the current uncertainties of the political situation, I hope that we may speedily send the Bill to another place so that it can reach the Statute Book during the life of this Parliament and not fall victim to any changes in the political situation.

11..9 a.m.

Sir Leslie Plummer: The hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) has had considerable success with the Bill, and I congratulate him on that success. It is not given to every hon. Member to get a Bill through "on the nod" quite as effectively as he has done. He will forgive me if I raise a few points, because I want some elucidation from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary rather than from the hon. Member himself.
The hon. Member rightly said that the Bill had the approval of the Government,


the farmers and the farmers' unions. Those are not necessarily wise supports. The Government, farmers and farmers' unions have made mistakes. In my view, the Government have blundered from mistake to mistake, particularly over agriculture. It is because of their record that I put these points in the hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will enlighten me about them.
I must declare an interest in that I am both a farmer and a farmer who applies for grants from time to time. My experience has been that there is a time lag between real costs and costs laid down by regulations. Real costs can be influenced very much by the weather. For example, in the last nine months, drainage work in East Anglia has, in my own bitter experience, cost much more than the regulation cost. The actual cost has been much more because the land has been absolutely saturated. The land drains have been running full bore. Even today, on 10th April, the land is still soaked. The heavy clay land has had such a saturation that when one comes to do drainage work and tries to estimate its cost on the basis of regulation, one is hopelessly out.
For example, I know farmers who have on their fields at present literally tens of thousands of land drainpipes which they bought last year in the hope that they would be able to complete their drainage operations. The appalling weather which we had last summer, and which was the experience of every hon. Member, was such that it was not possible to continue the work. Bank charges on the land drainpipes have been clicking on with absolute regularity, almost with the regularity of the rainfall. These charges have represented a considerable increase in the cost which cannot be reckoned in the cost laid down by regulation.
I agree that the weather is the risk of the farmer and is not the concern of the taxpayer or of the Government, but I should have thought that it would be a long time before the Government would say that this increased cost due to the weather should be included in any regulations which are laid down according to the cost of the job. On the other hand, if the farmer were putting in his actual charge he would be entitled to this extra money. Indeed, I think that the Ministry

ought to be in favour, when a delay of this kind occurs in an operation approved after the most careful investigation by the Ministry and by the local agricultural executive committee, of including charges of this kind.
I have dealt only with the question of things like drainpipes. The ordinary physical ability of the labour on the land, the ability of the agricultural worker to perform what the regulation would regard as a normal week's work, has been very materially affected by the weather. Who knows that better than the farmer himself? I am quite sure that as time goes by representatives of the Ministry discussing with the Treasury would be able to take into consideration these increased costs. But there is a long gap between the cup of the work and the lip, as it were, of the subsidy. Therefore, this presses quite hardly on the farmer.
On the reverse side of the medal, we get the situation that there are circumstances where the regulations, because of the slowness in adjusting the regulations to the facts of the expenditure, might be unfair to the taxpayer. For the life of me, I cannot see why it is not possible for the farmer to produce the actual figures of his expenditure, allowing for a bit of give and take one way or another, in proper consultation with drainage officers, with forestry officers and the rest. I still think that it is reasonable for the farmer to do this.
I know that the small farmer, the man who does not keep any books and who keeps his accounts stuck on a skewer, as it were, and who has to go to someone to prepare a statement for the Inland Revenue, generally gets assistance from the Ministry of Agriculture's inspectors in making out his charges. But the normal, competent farmer, who, in any case, has to have some sort of professional advice, seems to me fitted to be in a position to produce the necessary information to fill in the required forms.
A great deal of nonsense has been talked about the farmer being inundated with forms. The forms which the farmer has to fill up do not tax his intelligence unduly, nor do they take up so much of his time. It is true that the forms are necessary for the information of the Ministry, of the Treasury and of any money-expending organisation, and are a proper safeguard, but I do not think


that one should magnify the burden which they constitute.
I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to satisfy me, at least, that in accepting and supporting the Bill he has given due consideration to the point which I have raised, the lag between the actual cost and the cost as prescribed by regulation meeting each other, and is satisfied that the Bill, in the words of its promoters, is an improvement on the general situation.

11.16 a.m.

Mr. Peter Kirk: I, like the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer), wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) on his success with the Bill, a success which I welcome all the more because I hope that it will not attend other Measures which he may choose to promote from time to time.
I think that the Bill is slightly more than a tidying-up Measure, which was the rather modest description given to it by my hon. Friend. It is certainly a Measure of great interest to my constituents, many of whom are small farmers who work on extremely difficult and barren land. Many of them work on clay soil which, as the hon. Member for Deptford said, has suffered very severely in the past year or so. They will benefit by the field drainage provisions in the Bill.
There are one or two points which I should like to put to my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary, as we have not had an opportunity of discussing the Measure before, concerning some of the matters in the Bill. The first is the one about which the hon. Member for Deptford complained, I think with some justice—the delay between the increase in the actual cost and the time when any payment which might be made is made. Will the Bill lessen the gap between increasing cost and payment to any appreciable extent?
I believe that that is a point about which farmers all over the country would like to hear something from the Parliamentary Secretary. It is an important point because, as the hon. Member for Deptford said, charges on the equipment. particularly on some of the heavier and more complicated equipment which farmers have to have nowadays, can mount up very heavily over the months

as they wait for any money which they may get from the Ministry and for which, I am sure, they are all very grateful.
I am particularly interested in Clause 1 (4, c) concerning pests. In my part of Kent we are suffering from a very strong revival of the rabbit pest, which is a matter of very great concern to farmers. It appeared at one time that the myxomatosis resistance strain had been brought into that part of the country, but it now appears that the rabbits are subject to a milder form of the disease and will die out once again. I think that experience has shown that it is perfectly possible for rabbits, particularly, to get over what appears to be fatal diseases and to breed in large numbers as before.
What additional grant will the farmer get for preventive and destructive measures with regard to pests? I followed as carefully as I could the very clear exposé given by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough, but it does not seem to me that in this case the change will be of very great benefit to the farmer. I hope that my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to give us some idea of the difference in payments and the speed of payments which farmers will receive for pest destruction. This is a matter of the very greatest concern to farmers in my part of the country and one in which, I am sure, they are extremely interested.
In general, it would be interesting, if the Parliamentary Secretary has the figures, to know how this system will work in these three rather restricted cases. Presumably, the Ministry now has considerable experience of working a system of standard costs and I hope that it will be possible to show how it has worked in other cases and how the Ministry expects it will work in this case.
I welcome the Bill. I do not share the mild fears of the hon. Member for Deptford, and, unlike him, I cannot blame the Government if it rains, though I know that that point of view is widely held. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough in having succeeded in getting through a Bill which contains so much italic type. I recall what happened to a modest Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Newcastle-upon-Tyne, East (Mr. Blenkinsop), which had little more italic type in it, but which was


roundly trounced by my right hon. Friend the Minister of Housing and Local Government.

11.21 a.m.

Major W. Hicks Beach: I should begin by declaring an interest because, among other activities, I farm an area of Gloucestershire of which you, Mr. Speaker, will be well aware. I welcome the Bill and I should like to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) on his success in getting it through so far "on the nod". On general principles, I disapprove of Bills going through the House without any discussion. It is true that my hon. Friend has given a limited explanation of the Measure today, on this Third Reading, but I regard as limited an explanation which took only four minutes, and I hope that we shall hear more from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary about the purposes of the Bill.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough made the rather sweeping statement that additional expenditure would not be incurred by the taxpayer because of the provisions contained in the Bill. I find that difficult to understand. Presumably, its object is to make it easier and quicker for farmers to get grants. I should have thought that some charge to the taxpayer would he created, which makes it all the more important that we should consider what safeguards are provided in that direction.
It was stated that this Measure will enable some small farmers to get the third grant for rabbit-proof fencing. That may be so, but I wonder whether, in the long run, that will be a good thing. As a farmer, I am an adamant opponent of the rabbit, but I think that it would be better for the Government to assist farmers to keep down the rabbit pest rather than to give grants for rabbit-proof fencing.

Mr. Kirk: Surely it would be better to do both.

Major Hicks Beach: That is correct. and I hope we may have an assurance later that it is intended to interpret the Bill in that way.

Miss Margaret Herbison: Would the hon. and gallant Member be content to have the same provisions

for rabbits as are proposed in the Government's Bill relating to red deer in Scotland?

Major Hicks Beach: I should have thought that it would be more expensive to put up fencing which was proof against red deer than against rabbits, but I do not pretend to be an authority on the matter. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will give a ruling on that point, as I do not feel competent to advise or to assist the House about it.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough mentioned that various bodies had been consulted. That is all very admirable. I hope that the C.L.A. has been consulted. If it is proposed to consult the N.F.U. I think that we should consult the C.L.A., which has a great interest in this matter. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us what he reckons will be the additional expenditure, because there must be some, and it is no use pretending that there will not be. I am not offering any criticism about that.
Although I am not against what we call charging for direct labour, or allowing that to stand in estimating the cost for the purpose of improvement grants, I feel that the onus lies on the Parliamentary Secretary to explain what are the safeguards to ensure that this practice is not abused. Obviously, it is fairly easy for there to be abuses. I am not criticising the farming community—I am a farmer myself—but I think that adequate safeguards in this direction should be provided not only in respect of these grants but for all grants, so that the interests of the taxpayer may be protected.

11.25 a.m.

Mr. Frederick Peart: My right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is unable to be present today and I am deputising for him. My name appears in support of the Bill along with that of my right hon. Friend and I am glad to note that the Bill has all-party support. I welcome it and I think that the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) is to be complimented. He has been fortunate in the sense that this is the first time that the Bill has been discussed. It has had an easy passage.
I agree with the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Cheltenham


(Major Hicks Beach) that a Bill should not have a quick run in the sense that it is not discussed and, therefore, it is only right and proper that the hon. Member for Gainsborough should explain the purposes of the Measure, even though he has to do so during the Third Reading debate. It would create a bad precedent were a Bill to go through the House without discussion.
This may he a small Measure, but it is important because it is designed to improve administrative arrangements whereby the farming community receives grants. The farming community has the procedure which now operates through regulations approved by legislation which the Government sponsored relatively recently, and it is as a result of the experience of the farming community that we wish to bring in a Bill which will improve the regulations and the facilities enabling farmers to claim grants.
An important point was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). I do not wish to inject any political controversy into our discussions, but it has been said that the Bill aims at reducing the number of forms, or the amount of form filling, which farmers have to endure. I remember when hon. Members opposite made great play with this subject during the period of a Labour Government.
Indeed, the party opposite issued special propaganda leaflets in an endeavour to show that legislation promoted by a Labour Administration was really farming from Whitehall and that the farmers were over-burdened with form filling and unable to get on with their job. Now hon. Members opposite have realised that there was no truth in that propaganda. We did not wish to farm from Whitehall, but merely to decide policy there. I am glad, therefore, that hon. Members opposite and my hon. Friends can now combine to support this Measure by means of which we seek to reduce the amount of form filling.
The question is whether the farmer will still have to contend with the weather which affects his real costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Deptford mentioned the experience of farmers in East Anglia owing to the wet weather and the consequent drainage trouble. But that will still be the case and it will still be difficult to assess the real costs. Indeed,

the weather may well cause a rise in costs and, therefore, the work of the farmer may be impeded.
I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will give the Government's view. It is important to answer the very relevant question put by the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Cheltenham: Will this Bill result in additional cost to the taxpayer? I think that it will not. The physical aspect of the grants will not be affected. If the Minister or the farming community wish to spend more on drainage, which was the example quoted by the hon. Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk) and others, it can be done without this Bill, which is purely a tidying-up Measure.
The Bill is useful in that it will enable the farmer to fill up less forms. As the hon. Member for Gravesend said, in his area there is the problem of pests, and the hon. Member for Gainsborough pointed out that we wish to introduce into legislation covering pest control the new process of costing. In that case, the farmer will benefit and, in turn, he will himself be able to do more work on the farm in relation to pest control. I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will confirm that this will not be affected by this small Bill, which is designed to reduce form-filling and, above all, to speed up grant payments.
Anything which will help the farming community will, I hope, have the support of the House. Anything which would improve the efficiency of the farming community must have the support of the House, because anything which will increase agricultural production is important.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): indicated assent.

Mr. Peart: I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman nodding, because I am rather worried. I do not want to go beyond the bounds of order, Mr. Speaker, but there is this remarkable statement in paragraph 38 of the Economic Survey:
In agriculture the main object is greater efficiency rather than an increase in total output.
I should have thought that we would wish to increase total output. I should think that the sole purpose of Government policy is not only to have efficiency, but


to have it for the purpose of increasing agricultural production. Yet there is that argument against this principle in the Economic Survey. I support any legislation whereby the farming community can benefit as regards the payment of grants and loans made under previous legislation, and can, therefore, not only increase efficiency by better drainage and better pest control but can step up production.
I hope that the Parliamentary Secretary will reject the principle laid down by the Treasury in the Economic Survey. I give the Bill my own personal approval. I am certain that every hon. Member will welcome it and hopes that it will work well.

11.38 a.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. J. B. Godber): I am glad to have an opportunity of saying a few words in relation to this Bill. First, I wish to congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) both on his introduction of the Bill and on what I can only say must be his personal charm, because he has got it through the House so extraordinarily well to reach its Third Reading so promptly.
I am grateful to those hon. Members who have spoken this morning for giving me this opportunity to speak on behalf of the Government about the Bill. We welcome it. We believe that it will be useful and that it will continue a process which is of only recent introduction, that is, the use of standard costs in regard to certain Government grants. It is on this point that I want to say one or two words of explanation in the light of some of the comments made this morning. Perhaps it will be helpful if I give the House briefly the history of standard costs so that hon. Members can see it in perspective.
Until fairly recently we did not feel it would be possible to safeguard taxpayers' money being spent on grants unless we could do it against actual costs incurred and on evidence of receipted accounts. However, in the Silo Subsidies Act, we introduced two or three years ago a new principle of standard costs. We laid down certain definite operations which could be allowed for this grant, as we were dealing with a uniform matter and we felt it could he introduced in this

way. This proved to be more successful than had been anticipated. It proved to be more simple in its application, it was welcomed by the farming community and it enabled farmers in certain circumstances to use some of their own labour.
Accordingly, during the passage of the 1957 Agriculture Act we were pressed by both sides of the House, particularly by some of my hon. Friends, to introduce the same principle in regard to the grants made under the Farm Improvement Scheme. During the Committee stage of the Bill we promised to look at this point but we did not feel confident enough to introduce it at that time. Subsequent experience led us to believe that it was possible, so nearly twelve months ago we introduced some standard costs under the Farm Improvement Scheme, and they have proved extremely popular.
It is important to remind the House, however, that standard costs are not laid down as the one and only way in which farmers can apply for grant under the Farm Improvement Scheme, nor will they be under this Bill. There is an alternative of actual costs at the choice of the farmer. That is why I want to take up the point of the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer), who was afraid that the rate of grant we allowed would lag behind in certain circumstances which he instanced, and with which I can readily sympathise. He was thinking of exceptionally difficult weather conditions which put up costs. In those circumstances, there is no need for a farmer to opt for the standard costs. He may opt for actual costs, in which case he will receive his grant on the expenditure incurred.

Sir L. Plummer: Will the farmer have the option to decide before he operates the scheme or after the scheme has been completed?

Mr. Godber: I am afraid he must make his choice beforehand.

Sir L. Plummer: That defeats the argument I was putting. The weather may change. The conditions may become intolerable, as they did last year. The man believes the weather forecasts and does not understand that under the Tory Government the weather has been simply dreadful, and will continue to be dreadful, so he opts for the standard costs. He cannot be responsible for what has happened, nevertheless he is the loser. Is that fair to him?

Mr. Godber: I accept that is so, but it is unavoidable. We cannot have a system where a chap can change horses in midstream—perhaps that is an appropriate metaphor in this case. He must choose beforehand. If he is apprehensive of the weather the question of drainage arises, and he would naturally wish to be cautious. Incidentally, weather has always been a risk which the farmers have accepted. Under whatever Government there is bad weather, so I do not think either party can accept responsibility or take credit for the weather.
I am talking about grants under the Farm Improvement Scheme, in respect of which we have introduced standard costs. It is less than a year since we introduced this procedure, and I can inform the House that one-third of the applications now coming forward are made under the standard costs procedure. That shows that they have been appreciated and farmers have made use of them. In the light of that, when my hon. Friend brought forward this Bill we thought this was something on which it might he possible to extend the standard costs procedure. We have accepted the Bill and welcomed it because we believe it can be helpful, particularly in connection with the Hill Farming and Livestock Rearing Acts.
These Acts are mentioned specifically in Clause 1 (1). We go on to a mention of other possibilities—I emphasise possibilities—in subsection (4). We can see how this can be operated in regard to the Livestock Rearing Act, but we foresee difficulties with regard to the other Acts. The power is permissive and as we go along the Minister will have to decide for which, if any, of these purposes under subsection (4, a, b, c) he can introduce standard costs. It is our desire and wish to introduce standard costs for all of them if we can, but we must feel our way. Power is given under this Bill to do so. and we should be in a position to make use of standard costs in this regard without further legislation.
I give a word of caution that it may not be possible to use standard costs in all cases. One such case is drainage, but we shall look at that as sympathetically as we can. Working out the standard costs for some of these things is not easy. We have to find a basis which is fair both to the taxpayer and the farmer,

and standard costs can be introduced only if the figure bears some relation to the cost on most farms. In drainage there is considerable variation in the cost. Standard costs could be introduced only at the lower rate so that there would not be waste of public money on a number of farms to enable full recoupment for the more expensive operations. That is a warning I give, but we shall take it as far as we can.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk) asked if the gap between completion and payment could be lessened. In general, where standard costs are in operation we have found it easier to speed the process, because we do not then have to wait for receipted accounts. The matter is agreed and we can obtain effective evidence and make the payment. At present, in many cases there is delay in presentation of accounts which have to be examined, whereas when standard costs are used the matter is more simple and can be speeded up.

Mr. Kirk: What proof does the Ministry require if receipted accounts cannot be presented?

Mr. Godber: There can, of course, be inspection by our officers to see that the work is completed. At present, we not only have to see receipted accounts but have to be satisfied that they are cleared in all respects. With standard costs, cases can be easily checked and we would not have to go into such great detail as we do in existing circumstances.
My hon. Friend also asked about rabbits, which, he pointed out, are covered by subsection (4, c).>I have already given the warning that we shall have to see how we go along and whether we can introduce standard costs in this respect. My hon. Friend pointed out that the trouble with rabbits is getting worse again and asked what we were doing about it. We are encouraging to the utmost the formation of rabbit clearance societies. They have been rather slow in getting going, but the formation is speeding up now and societies are being established all over the country. A most useful thing that any hon. Member can do, if he knows of this difficulty in his constituency, is to urge landowners and farmers to band together in such societies which receive grant for their expenses at the rate of a pound for a pound. They


are doing good work in a number of areas. If we can get them all over the country, they will do much to deal with this difficult and troublesome pest.
My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) asked specifically what additional expense would be incurred by this Bill. That is a very difficult question to answer. The probability is that there will be no increase in expenditure, but we cannot be certain. That is why a Financial Resolution had to be introduced. If standard costs are introduced there might be more applications than there are at present because standard costs have the attraction for the small farmer in that his own labour is included in respect of some work. Therefore, in some cases they have come forward more readily with applications, so that the introduction of standard costs would increase the number coming forward and increase total expenditure.
On the other hand, utilisation of standard costs could bring down expenditure in certain cases where at present farmers are unable to charge for their own work and have to bring in contractors to isolated places with the result that inevitably the costs are high in getting the contractor to the farm. While there might be a bigger number of applications, quite a number of the individual cases could be less in amount and at the end of the day, the total could be slightly less or slightly more. I think there would not be a material difference from the total at present involved. The application for a Financial Resolution was a precautionary step in case it could be said that further expenditure would be stimulated.
I am glad that the hon. Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) gave a welcome to the Bill. We are glad to have all-party agreement on it, particularly at a time when political temperatures are rising. The only controversial note which was introduced was the mention of red deer. I do not know whether there was any political implication in that. The hon. Lady the Member for Lanarkshire, North (Miss Herbison) has now left the Chamber, and as I am responsible neither for Scotland nor for red deer and Scottish hon. Members are dealing with this problem at some length, I do not wish to

become involved in it, although I am sure it is a most interesting topic.
The hon. Member for Workington made a particular point of some interest with which I should like to deal. He referred to the Economic Survey and the question of increasing agricultural production. This is also referred to in the White Paper on the Price Review in which we have said that we do not think an increase in gross production is required. What we have said there, and I think over the last two or three years in the Annual Price Review White Papers, is that we believe further increase should be in net production rather than in gross production. That is a point we must get over. We are certainly not against increased production from farms where it can be said that net production is increased, but an increase of production based solely on imported feedingstuffs is of no value to the country, nor the farming community generally.
Where production might be helped by a certain amount of foreign feedingstuffs used in conjunction with home-produced feedingstuffs, that is the best solution for the individual farm and for the farming community as a whole. We are faced with the fact that last year imports of feedingstuffs—speaking from memory—rose from 5·4 million tons to 6·1 million tons, involving an extra cost in our balance of payments of £20 million. That will not be altogether healthy if it is carried too far. That is why we want to see more of that food produced at home and to have an increase in net production rather than in gross production. That is what has been said in the Economic Survey as well as in the White Paper on the Price Review.
I have dealt with these points at some length because hon. Members have shown a clear interest in them. I wish in no way to inhibit discussion, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough does not wish to inhibit it, either. I hope, however, that in the light of what I have said hon. Members will realise that this is a valuable Bill which has been welcomed by the farming community and supported on both sides of the House. I hope that the House will give the Bill a Third Reading.

Mr. Frederick Willey: In the debate in Standing Committee and on Report on the Agriculture


Bill, 1957, the only discordant note struck, as far as I remember, was that struck by my hon. Friend the Member for Faversham (Mr. P. Wells), who raised the question of agricultural workers being called on to do tasks strictly outside their work. He was speaking as a representative of a trade union which has a large number of agricultural workers in its membership. I have raised similar issues at Question Time in respect of consultations with trade unions catering for building trade workers to see that no difficulties arose about the kind of work done. Will the Joint Parliamentary Secretary assure the House that there will be consultations with the appropriate trade unions to see that this work, which we all want to see done, as far as possible is done without any difficulty of that sort?

Mr. Godber: I do not recall the occasion to which the hon. Member refers. We have already instituted this procedure and as far as I am aware are using it without difficulty under the Farm Improvements Scheme. The Bill seeks merely to extend it. I will look at the point which the hon. Member raised, but I should not have thought that fresh consultation was called for in what is merely an extension. I do not wish to cut out consultation, and I am always ready to take part in it, but I do not think that the Bill calls for new consultation. I will gladly took at the point which the hon. Member has made.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.

Orders of the Day — SMALL LOTTERIES AND GAMING ACT, 1956 (AMENDMENT) BILL

Order for Third Reading read.

11.55 a.m.

Mr. Ernest Davies: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
It had been my intention to move the Third Reading formally, but in view of objections raised by the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) and my hon. Friend the Member for Workington (Mr. Peart) to Bills passing through the House without discussion, it seems incumbent upon me to say a few words of explanation.
So far the Bill has passed through all stages in the House without discussion and without any opposition. I think that that shows the good sense of hon. Members and their appreciation of the necessity of this amendment of the Act which I introduced about three years ago—the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956. When that Act was passing through the House and we considered the small lotteries which it legalised in certain conditions, if held for charitable purposes, it was assumed that they could be held anywhere, but in a case which appeared before the courts last summer, Smith v. Wyles, it was ruled that these small lotteries constituted gaming and, consequently, could not be held on licensed premises where they are prohibited by Section 141 of the Licensing Act. 1953. That is the section of the Licensing Act which requires that gaming shall not take place on licensed premises.
When the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act was passing through its various stages we introduced into the second part of it a proviso which made it clear that the Licensing Act applied to the gaming which was authorised under that Act—not the small lotteries, but the gaming such as whist drives which was legalised under certain conditions. It is clear that if the Act stated that the Licensing Act applied in those cases and if no reference was made to the small lotteries which were legalised, then clearly it was the intention of Parliament that the Licensing Act of 1953 should not apply to small lotteries where it prohibited them from being held on licensed premises.
The Bill amends the Act to make it clear that these small lotteries which are held for charitable purposes, for sporting clubs, or to raise funds for various organisations, can be held on licensed premises. I feel sure that the House will agree that it is right that the law should be in the state in which Parliament thought it rested when it passed the original Act.

11.57 a.m.

Mr. F. P. Bishop: I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) has given that short explanation of the purpose of the Bill, not only because, in general, I entirely agree with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) about the undesirability of any Bill passing through all its stages in the House without discussion, but also because I feel that in this case some explanation was needed.
It is true that on the face of it this is a very simple Bill which, as the Explanatory Memorandum says, is designed simply to make a small amendment to the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956. On the other hand, it appears from the court decision that the Bill makes an amendment to the law relating to gaming in licensed premises. That is why, while I congratulate the hon. Member on his Bill having gone through the House so quickly, without opposition Of discussion, I am a little surprised at that fact because, although I am not one of them, there are many hon. Members who take a poor view of both gaming and licensed premises. As I have said, I am not one of them. I am in favour of gaming in the very modest form provided in the main Act, and I am definitely in favour of licensed houses, but in the past it has been a conjunction of these two things which has been looked upon with such doubt and suspicion and on which the law has been so strict.
Since it has been held by the courts that a small lottery is gaming and comes within the terms of the Statute prohibiting gaming in licensed premises, it appears to be a little more than a bare formality to bring in a Bill to change that law. For that reason and for no other,

and certainly not because I am in any way opposing the Bill, I think it desirable that we should hear the Government's view from my hon. and learned Friend the Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department and that before we part with the Bill it should be placed on record that these matters should be considered and duly weighed by the House. Subject to that and to anything which the Minister may say, I heartily support the Third Reading.

11.59 a.m.

Mr. James McInnes: I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) that I am not opposing the Bill. Rather am I seeking some clarification. The Bill specifically states that it shall not extend to Northern Ireland, and I assumed that it would extend to Scotland, but from inquiries which I have had from a number of Scottish local authorities it appears that they seem to have been given some assurance that there is no intention that the Bill shall apply to Scotland. Will my hon. Friend make that quite clear?

Mr. Ernest Davies: My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Central (Mr. McInnes) is quite correct. I have made inquiries about this. The Licensing Act, 1953, which is, in effect, amended by the Bill, does not apply to Scotland. As this exempts the application of a Section of that Act to the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956, it does not affect Scotland. It was not considered necessary to state in the Bill that it did not apply to Scotland, but it seems to be common form to refer to Northern Ireland.

12.1 p.m.

Major W. Hicks Beach: The hon. Member for Enfield, East (Mr. Ernest Davies) was kind enough to refer to me. Therefore, it would be discourteous if I did not say a word or two. It is true that I strongly object, and always have strongly objected. to Bills going through "on the nod."
I should like to congratulate the hon. Member on his explanation of the Bill. I certainly did not understand it until he explained it to the House. Now I am fully convinced that it is a very good Bill, and it has my full support.

12.2 p.m.

The Joint Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Renton): It has been said that Bills should not go through "on the nod", but, fortunately, nobody has said that a Government speech is required on every Private Member's Bill. Nothing would have persuaded me to speak today but for the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop) has asked me for the Government's view. My hon. Friend is working me very hard, because I am also speaking for him in his constituency tonight.
As my hon. Friend has asked for the Government view, may I say that we have noted that the purpose of the Bill is succinctly set out in the Explanatory Memorandum? We have considered the way in which the Bill achieves its purpose, and it seems to be a technically sound way of doing it. It is a Bill which concerns both betting and drinking. Born those subjects are frequently left to the decision of the House without advice from the Government. On this occasion it is right that I should say that the Government attitude to the Bill is one of neutrality, but somewhat benevolent neutrality.

12.3 p.m.

Mr. Niall MacDermot: Can the Joint Under-Secretary of State assure us that, when the time next comes for the Government to review the Licensing Acts, they will look carefully at the words which have given rise to the trouble in this case and have made the Bill necessary? The operative words of Section 141 of the Licensing Act, 1953, are that there shall not he carried on in licensed premises any gaming or unlawful games. What a number of statutes have done is to declare various forms

of lottery not to be unlawful games or not to be unlawful lotteries. That is what the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956, did. But they have not declared them not to be gaming.
Broadly speaking, "gaming" is defined by the courts as being any form of game by which prizes are to be distributed by the laws of chance and in which the element of skill does not enter to any substantial degree. As nearly all the forms of gaming at which the Act was originally aimed are also covered by the words "unlawful games", would it not be tidier to get rid of the word "gaming" and to limit the Licensing Act provision purely to unlawful games? I do not expect that the Joint Under-Secretary of State can give an answer to the point straight away.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) is now discussing a wider matter than the Bill would permit the Government to inquire into. We are dealing merely with the small matter of gaming on licensed premises.

Mr. MacDermot: With great respect, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to he out of order. I am discussing the wording of a Section which is referred to in the Bill, namely, Section 141 of the Licensing Act, 1953. What the Bill does, in effect, is to amend that Section as it relates to the Small Lotteries and Gaming Act, 1956. All that I am asking is that the Government will agree to look at the matter and consider whether they can, by altering the words which have given rise to the trouble, avoid the necessity for Bills of this kind in future.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read the Third tinn: and passed.

Orders of the Day — WILLS, &c. (PUBLICATION) BILL

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

Clause 1.—(RESTRICTION ON PUBLICATION OF CONTENTS OF WILLS AND AMOUNTS OF ESTATES.)

12.5 p.m.

Mr. Marcus Kimball: I beg to move, in page 1, line 6, to leave out "print or".
The further Amendment on the Notice Paper in my name, in page 1, line 6, to leave out "printed or" is consequential. The Amendments improve the Bill and I hope that the House will accept them.

Major W. Hicks Beach: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Are we discussing merely the first Amendment, or the first and third Amendments together?

Mr. Speaker: It will be convenient to discuss the first and third Amendments together.

Major Hicks Beach: In supporting the Amendment I had better begin by saying that there is nothing better than a sinner who repents. I was astonished this morning, when I saw the Notice Paper, to find that the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) and the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) had prima facie. done a complete volte-face and were now supporting my Amendment, which was very fully discussed in Committee. At that time both hon. Members were quite definite that in no circumstances could they accept or support it.
That means that we must look into this very carefully. The object of the Amendment which originally stood in my name and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling) was twofold. First, it was a scheme to put right what I regard as some unusual and bad drafting in the Bill. I ventured to say, on Second Reading, that I thought that the Bill was badly drawn and unnecessary. I regret to say that in Committee nothing convinced me that I am not absolutely right in that contention.
I also ventured to say in Committee that I thought that the Bill was being rushed through and that insufficient consultation had taken place with the various

interested bodies, such as the Law Society, which normally should have been consulted. I think that it is fair to say that the Law Society has now been consulted and I have no grumble on that score, but the further investigations which I have now had time to make into the Bill have again convinced me of how badly drafted and inconsistent it is in many of its Clauses.
These two Amendments—as the hon. Member for Gainsborough said, the second one is consequential—are intended, first, to put right what I believe to be probably a drafting error.
The short Title of the Bill is "Wills, &c. (Publication)". The long Title is
A Bill To restrict the publication"—
I stress the word "publication"—
of particulars as to the estate and as to the contents of the will or of any codicil or any testamentary disposition of any deceased person where such publication is contrary to the wishes of such person as expressed in such will, codicil or testamentary disposition; and for purposes connected with the matters aforesaid.
I stressed "publication". I think that I am correct in saying that when drafting a Parliamentary Bill it is usual to try to follow as closely as possible—it may not always be possible—and so far as is consistent its short and long Titles.
In Clause 1 (1) we find the words "print or," which I am now seeking to delete, and also the words "printed or." To make the Bill consistent with its short and long Titles, I submit that those words should be deleted. Frankly, this is only a drafting point, and the other grounds on which I support the Amendment are very much more important.
By putting in the word "print" we create two offences—publishing and printing, and though I have made very considerable research I cannot see how the Bill's purpose is not carried out by simply adding the word "publishing." To refer to printing creates a separate offence, and I believe that it may lead to very considerable difficulties.
If contrary to this Measure, a printer prints the particulars of a will, is it proposed that he himself should be prosecuted? Is it proposed that the printer— the man who turns the wheel to make the machine go round—should be prosecuted, or is it to be the director of the firm that


runs the printing business—or who? Or is everyone physically concerned with the printing to be prosecuted? I was very surprised that this word was not taken out in Committee, but, as I say, there is nothing better than a sinner who repents.
To implement the terms of the Bill, surely it is necessary only to have reference to publication. Then the person who was subject to prosecution would be the person responsible for the publication. There was some discussion of this point in Committee, but I do not think that it was altogether satisfactorily cleared up. The person to be prosecuted should be the person responsible for publication.
I suggest that the Amendment improves the drafting, and makes less wide and rather more clear what the promoters of the Bill seek to do, though I must confess that I myself have found very great difficulty in understanding it.

Mr. Niall MacDermot: We welcome seeing the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) standing forth in the role of the repentant sinner, but the House must view what he says in that capacity with some care and caution. In Committee, he himself moved an exceedingly important Amendment, to meet objections, and it was written into the Bill. We now find that he has become the repentant sinner in respect of his own Amendment. That being so, when we find him rushing in with such alacrity to support this Amendment we need to look at it with some care to see how it will affect the Bill.
Originally. the Amendment now before us appeared in the name of the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major 1-licks Beach) and one of his hon. Friends, but, as we have seen, his hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough has added his name to it, with the result that it is he who has moved it. Tribute has been paid to the modesty of the hon. Member for Gainsborough, and he has certainly exemplified that characteristic by the way in which he moved the Amendment. Indeed, he did so with such modesty that I think most Members had considerable difficulty in understanding what it is all about or what it is designed to achieve.
I must, therefore, deal with the Amendment as it has been rather more fully explained by the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham. He dealt with it in two ways: first, as a drafting Amendment—and I will return to that later—and secondly, as an Amendment of very great substance. As I understand, what he wishes is to exempt printers from liability to conviction for offences against the provisions of this Bill.
I understand his intention is that where, contrary to the provisions of the Bill—assuming that it becomes law —a newspaper publishes some of the prohibited particulars of the will or of the estate of a deceased person, only its publisher, in the accepted sense of the word, or the editor of the newspaper shall be liable to conviction. That does not arise, of course, in regard to matters published by means of wireless telegraphy, television or the like, and a later Amendment deals with the reference to "master printer" in subsection (2).
12.15 p.m.
We have to speculate, because we have not been told, why the words "print or" were originally inserted. We may assume that it was done rather on the analogy of the kind of proceedings that can be taken against a printer in respect of, for example, the publication of a libel—under the ordinary law of defamation—or the publication of an obscene publication under the law relating to that sort of publication.
In those cases a printer is liable equally with the publisher, and in some cases it is important that he should be. Where a libel leads to an action for damages, it may well be—and often is—the case that the author, or the publisher in the accepted sense of the word, of the particular document is a man of straw, a man of no means, and one whom it is not worth suing at all, whereas the printer may be some one, or a company, of real substance, who may be sued. This liability of the printer himself provides a very strong and important additional check on, and protection against the publication of libels and of obscene matter. The intention is carried through from the civil taw to the criminal law in dealing with criminal libels—in such matters as criminal prosecutions relating to obscene publications.
We are here dealing with a proposed extension of our criminal law in order to prevent certain publications taking place. If the protection that I have prescribed has been found necessary in the other branches of the law—making the printer liable—I should like to know why that protection is not necessary here; that is to say, if it is the true intention of the Amendment, as the hon. and gallant Member has said, to make the printer no longer liable.
It may be argued that, looking at the matter from a practical point of view, the kind of cases and circumstances in which this sort of matter is published are not the kind in which the publisher, in the accepted sense, is a man of straw. This kind of publication normally takes place either in the national and local daily Press or in the weekly Press—and, particularly, in the local weekly Press. I suppose that in most such cases it may be argued that it would be a sufficient protection to make the publisher and the editor responsible without any need to make the printer responsible as well. But one does not know what might be the effect of a Bill of this kind if it becomes law. There are some very curious publications in existence.
There is, I believe, a publication produced periodically which publishes the names of small debtors and persons against whom county court judgments have been recorded. That publication, of course, is of interest to traders, shopkeepers and people of that kind. I believe there is a well-known leading case in the law of libel in which someone's name wrongly appeared in that publication. If this Bill becomes law someone might seek to evade its terms by producing at greater intervals than thirty-six days, which is the period specified in the definition Clause, a publication containing particulars of wills and nothing else. In that way, the publishers might try to satisfy the curiosity of people who are interested in these matters.

Mr. F. P. Bishop: Is there not a great opportunity for a quarterly or bi-monthly paper to be published?

Mr. MacDermot: Yes. I am suggesting that this might be the effect of the Bill. Suppose that such a publication

came out but that it was produced at too great frequency so that it was not brought outside the terms of the definition Clause. In such a case the publisher might well be a man of straw. If it is really necessary and in the public interest to pass a law of this kind, ought not the protection, if it is to be a real one, to extend to the printer?
For my part, I do not like the Bill at all; I say so frankly, and I made it clear on Second Reading. I do not wish to see it extended. I suggest, however, that before we accept this Amendment we should consider it and its implications. So much for the substance, or the intended substance, of the Amendment.
Let us now come to the other point, the drafting aspect, to see what would be the effect of the Amendment. I should be interested to hear the views of the Solicitor-General on this point, and I hope that he will give us the benefit of his advice, because as I read the Amendment, I think its effect would be precisely nil. I do not think it would make the slightest alteration in the law if the words "print or" were omitted.
If we accepted the Amendment we would then have to look at the meaning of the words which were left, namely
… to … publish or cause to be … published.
There is no definition of the word "publish" in this Bill. Therefore, it is to be assumed that the word will be construed in the same way as the courts construe it in other branches of the law, in relation to the law of defamation, the publication of obscene libels and matters of that kind. Any making public of a document, any communication of a document to a third person, is in law a publication, and a printer who prints a document publishes that document within the meaning of the term "publish" in law. That is why in the law of defamation a printer can be sued because he does, in fact, publish the document.
Therefore, as I understand the law, the effect of this Amendment would be precisely nothing. If the hon. Member for Gainsborough is a sinner in this respect, I think his repentance counts for very little. If he wishes to repent in the sense of exempting a printer from liability, I suggest that it must be done in some other way. Perhaps it could be done by leaving out these words


and by adding a definition at the end of the word "publish " which would exclude printing and would make it clear that the publisher here was meant not in the technical, legal sense of the term but in the ordinary sense in which it is understood in the journalistic world, as the person who is the publisher of a document as opposed to the printer. That is something which we cannot do today, but the hon. Member may he able to persuade someone in another place to look at it and deal with it if his Bill gets that far.
However, for various reasons I would recommend to the House that as the matter stands this Amendment is in many respects unsatisfactory and should not be accepted. I oppose it.

Mr. Peter Kirk: I must apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) for not being here when he moved the Amendment. As a matter of fact, if he will not mind my saying so, he moved it so quickly that I did not have time to get back into the Chamber to hear him. I thought, having listened to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach), that I understood what the Amendment was about, but. having listened to the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot), I am now very confused indeed.
I think this arises from the extraordinarily had way in which this Bill is drafted. We are faced now with a dilemma which may take us some little time to resolve. The hon. Member for Lewisham, North said that he understood that the purpose of this Amendment was to relieve the printer of the penalties which might otherwise fall upon him under this Bill. Certainly at first sight that would appear to be so, but I have not noticed any Amendment in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough or of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham or any other hon. Member interested in this Bill to remove the words "master printer" from the penalty provision, the proviso at the end of Clause 1 (2). We do not know, and no printer in the country will know, until this matter is tested in the courts, whether or not a master printer would be liable to any penalties under the Bill if he were to publish

details of a will such as would be prohibited by the Bill.
We must have an explanation of why this extraordinary procedure has been followed by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough in adding his name to someone else's Amendment thereby getting the right to move it, and then not seeking to remove a pair of important consequential words, the words "master printer". I would be dubious of the wisdom of accepting this Amendment, even though I have great respect for the judgment of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham.
I think the secondary point made by the hon. Member for Lewisham, North is also of some importance. What does the word "publish" mean in this respect? If we take out the words "print or" it is bound to be necessary to know what we mean by the word "publish" An explanation of that is necessary in view of the fact that the word "publish" is not in the definition Clause. In those circumstances, unless I receive some further explanation of the effect of the Amendment, I could not support it.

Mr. Marcus Lipton: The position is becoming very involved and confused. I do not know whether what I shall say will increase the confusion.
The first point I want to raise concerns you, Mr. Speaker. It will be observed that when the Amendments to this Bill were last published, up to and including 8th April, 1959, the Amendment which we are now discussing stood in the names of the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) and the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling).
This morning we obtained from the Vote Office a new list of Amendments, or new to this extent, that suddenly the name of the hon. Member for Gains-borough (Mr. Kimball) appears at the head of those who support the Amendment, and the name of the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) also appears. This, of course, is quite in order, because if he added his name last it should appear last. I should like to know how it is possible for an hon. Member to arrange for his name to be inserted at the. top of the list of those who have submitted an Amendment because, if that is so, there are many Motions and Amendments appearing on


the Notice Paper which I had not thought of previously and which I should like to sponsor. If, in those circumstances, I can arrange for my name to be published right at the very top of them, it is a privilege of which I shall not hesitate to avail myself on future occasions. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you can advise me how it is possible for the order of names to be altered in this way.

12.30 p.m.

Mr. Speaker: The name of the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) appears at the top of the list of those supporting the Amendment, because he is the promoter of the Bill. If the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) wishes to achieve the same amount of priority in future, he must first promote the Bill to which the Amendment relates.

Mr. Kenneth Robinson: Can you tell us, Mr. Speaker, whether any degree of priority is afforded to the sponsors of the Bill as well as to the promoter?

Mr. Speaker: Only to the promoter of the Bill.

Major Hicks Beach: As I am rather personally involved, I should like to ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker. Having heard what has been said on the other side of the House, I am not at all sure that this Amendment of mine is a good one. Am I in a position now, Mr. Speaker, to withdraw the Amendment?

Mr. Speaker: No. The hon. and gallant Member did not move the Amendment.

Mr. Lipton: In the light of your Ruling, Mr. Speaker, I shall refer to various publications which deal with the rights of the promoter of a Bill in this House, with a view to finding out to what extent this kind of thing has happened on previous occasions. I have no doubt, in view of your Ruling, it has happened on previous occasions, but it will be of interest perhaps to many of us to find out when this very curious exercise of the privilege that you have mentioned, which apparently adheres to promoters of Bills was first exercised.
I come to the point that was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for

Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot). He was very doubtful whether this Amendment would make any difference at all. He seemed, in my own submission, to overlook the fact that printing or publishing would have to be in a newspaper for the purpose of coming within the terms of subsection (1), as I understand it. Therefore, to print or publish details of a will in vacuo or outside the columns of a newspaper would not come within the terms of the Bill.

Mr. MacDermot: Let us be clear about this. The term "newspaper" is not used in this Bill in its ordinary sense as the public understand it. The term has a definition and, therefore, any document which falls within that definition is a newspaper. If my hon. Friend will look at the top of page 3 he will see that definition is:
…any paper or other periodical containing public news or observations thereon which is printed for sale and is published in Great Britain either periodically or in parts or numbers at intervals not exceeding thirty-six days;
Clearly, we could get a document which was not a newspaper in the ordinary sense of the word but which fell within this definition.

Mr. Lipton: I am obliged to my hon. Friend for drawing my attention to Clause 2, the definition Clause. But that raises another problem, because it seems to me that if particulars of a will are printed not in a document for sale then one can drive through the terms of this Bill a carriage and pair because, as my hon. Friend has pointed out, a newspaper means
…any paper or other periodical…
and those conditions have to be satisfied. It has to contain public news, or, if it does not contain public news, it has to contain observations thereon, and it has to be printed and sold and published in this country before it can come within the terms of the Bill. Therefore, in my submission—

Mr. Kirk: This is a very important point. In his interpretation of the Bill as a solicitor, would the hon. Gentleman say that if one gave away with a newspaper a free supplement containing particulars of the will that would, in fact, defeat the terms of the Bill, because it would not be for sale?

Mr. Lipton: That is a question which I should like to hand over to the Solicitor-General when he deals with the discussion on this Amendment. The hon. Gentleman has quoted what seems might be a borderline case, because it occurs to me that an ordinary member of the public would not be able to obtain this supplement unless he bought the newspaper, and it would, I think, be necessary for the newspaper to give away the supplement quite unconditionally without compelling the persons interested in the supplement to buy the newspaper as well. However, these are all additional points which I think ought to convince the House that in this respect, as in so many other respects, the Bill is so loosely drafted and so incompetently presented—

Mr. Frederick Willey: Will my hon. Friend deal with another point which is not unimportant? Supposing a periodical is circulated to members of a society who subscribe to that society, and in return for that one of the things which they receive is regarded within the terms of this Bill as a periodical, is that a newspaper for sale within the terms of the Bill?

Mr. Lipton: In those circumstances I should have to examine the rules of the society and all the surrounding circumstances before I could venture to give a ruling on the interesting but complicated point to which my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, South has just drawn attention.

Mr. Willey: I represent Sunderland, North.

Mr. Lipton: I apologise to my hon. Friend. Although I know Sunderland very well, the confusion arising in this Amendment has confused me even as to the part of Sunderland that he represents.
This kind of thing will go on and on if the House rather foolishly decides, with or without this Amendment, to allow the Bill to go to another place. I think that the hon. Member for Gainsborough, for whose quick-fire methods in handling this Bill I have the utmost respect, would be well advised to say, "I am so impressed by the arguments that I have heard this day in the House that I think

that the interests of all concerned would best be served if I, at this stage, withdrew the Bill for further consideration with a view to submitting it perhaps at a later date."
I find myself in this position. It seems to me that it does not matter twopence whether we accept this Amendment or not. The only effect of having the Amendment on the Notice Paper suddenly adopted—I will not say legitimised —by the name of the hon. Member for Gainsborough is to make it quite clear that the Bill ought to be dropped or have its throat cut at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. Bishop: I should like briefly to return to the question why these words "print or" originally were put into the Bill and why, having been put into the Bill, it is now proposed by the promoter of the Bill that they should be taken out.
The reason why the House needs a little more information on this subject is that the matter, not quite on the same point but substantially on it, was discussed in Committee. when my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) was not prepared to accept an Amendment and my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General on that occasion, while preserving his neutrality, which he has been so careful to preserve throughout the proceedings on the Bill, advised the Committee on the effect of these words.
What my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General said was:
My recollection is that this pattern of wording: 'print or publish or cause to be printed or published' is the exact formula we put into the statute which governs our restriction on reporting divorce proceedings and it has worked perfectly satisfactorily."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee C, 17th December, 1958; c. 35.]
With that, apparently, the Committee was satisfied and the Amendment was negatived without further discussion.

Major Hicks Beach: The Solicitor-General added that he thought my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) would probably agree with that, to which my hon. Friend then indicated assent, which seems to be exactly the reverse of what he is doing now.

Mr. Lipton: What is the column reference of that?

Major Hicks Beach: I believe it is column 26.

Mr. Bishop: The House should know whether my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General is in agreement with my hon. Friend the Member for Gains-borough, the promoter of the Bill, in changing his mind on the use of these words.
Another analogy in the discussion was the words used in the Bill limiting publication or printing of divorce proceedings. In the course of his speech on the Amendment, however, the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) referred also to the liability of the printers as well as of the publisher in connection with libel proceedings. That seems to me to be an entirely different case, because, as the hon. Member said. usually in those circumstances the publisher and the printer are two entirely different people or companies and in many cases the publisher may be relatively a man of straw while the printer is the powerful and wealthy corporation.
Any such analogy as that is quite out of place in considering the Bill. Here we are dealing only with the printer or the publisher of a newspaper. The printer of a newspaper is normally not a separate company, but is a person employed by the publisher. Indeed, the intention of the use of the word "print" as well as "publish" in that sense is made clear enough by the words in subsection (2) of the Clause which limit liability for conviction under the Bill to certain people. They are evidently meant to be individuals, not corporations. Subsection (2, a) uses the words:
a proprietor, editor, master printer or publisher of the newspaper".
I agree with what one of my hon. Friends said, that if the Amendment is accepted and the word "print" is taken out, there should be a consequential Amendment to subsection (2) which renders the master printer of a newspaper personally liable to conviction under the Bill.
12.45 p.m.
I would have been quite willing to accept the judgment on this matter that was given to the Committee by my right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. I have been shaken by many of the subsequent speeches at this stage and, frankly, I now find it difficult to know

what to do. I take comfort, however, from the thought that the hon. Member for Lewisham, North, who is an authority on these matters, has satisfied himself that it will not make any difference. If that is so, we can either reject or support the Amendment as the judgment of the House may seem to go. Whether or not the Amendment is accepted, however, having adopted and supported it my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough should deal with the personal liability of the master printer under subsection (2, a).

Sir Leslie Plummer: If I find myself in a more than unusual state of confusion, I am not as much to blame as the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball), who sponsors the Bill, because in coming to the penitent stool he has stumbled and fallen over it. What he has done is, as the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop) said, to put into peril the master printer, probably inadvertently, because he does not know what a master printer is. If I describe to the hon. Member what a master printer is, perhaps he will reconsider whether it is right eventually to introduce an Amendment to safeguard this man from the innocent results of his own work.

Mr. Speaker: Probably that point could be more profitably discussed at a later stage. There is no Amendment before the House at present to leave out the master printer. The hon. Member should try to discuss the merits of the Amendment.

Mr. Lipton: Would you care to indicate, Mr. Speaker, whether you would agree at a later stage to accept a manuscript Amendment to deal with this matter?

Mr. Speaker: No. I will give no such indication.

Sir L. Plummer: I am in this difficulty. Subsection (2) contains a reference to the master printer as being a person who is liable to be convicted. The Amendment deals with the work of a master printer. There appears to be no Amendment excluding the master printer nor any indication of intention by the sponsor of the Bill to exclude the master printer. For that reason, I was addressing myself to the position of the master printer under the Amendment and to the provisions of subsection (2, a).

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is quite entitled to use the fact that there is no later proposal to exclude the master printer from the terms of the Bill. He is entitled to use that as an argument against the Amendment which is now before the House.

Sir L. Plummer: I am obliged, Mr. Speaker.
Because there is no later Amendment to exclude the master printer, I should like to put to the hon. Member for Gainsborough the way in which he puts the printer in difficulty. The printer of a periodical or newspaper is not the publisher. As the hon. Member for Harrow, Central said, he is an employee. He is a compositor. He is the man who receives the written or typewritten material. He gives it to his staff of compositors, of whom he is the master, to set. There his responsibility ends, utterly and completely. He has to see, of course, that the men do their job properly. He has to see that the corrections are made. He has a purely technical job to do.
By the Amendment he is being put in peril for an act with which he has nothing to do. He does not distribute the paper and, technically, does not print it. This is done by an entirely different man. Yet the purpose of the Amendment is to put a head compositor, the head printer, of a newspaper or periodical in considerable danger. I am sure that that is not the hon. Member's intention and that he does not wish to put this quite worthy technician in this position. It would be better, therefore, for all concerned if the hon. Member withdrew the Amendment, because it serves no useful purpose except to put men like this in jeopardy.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Harry Hylton-Foster): My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop) falsely accused me, with great courtesy, of having expressed a view in Committee on whether we should keep the printer in. With respect, however, that is not right. My blameless appearance of neutrality I desire to preserve and for that reason I have to take up the point.
What we were discussing in Committee on 17th December was an Amendment moved by the hon. and learned Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine) to leave out the words "or cause to he printed or published". The

emphasis on our discussion then was whether we should retain the words "cause to be". It was in the context of keeping those words in as opposed to dealing with printing or publishing that I referred to the publication of reports of divorce proceedings.
It is true that if we accept the Amendment something would have to be done about line 25 in page 2. I do not think that any hon. Member has yet mentioned a point on the merits of the Amendment which I should have thought the House should have in mind. After all, what the Bill will prohibit is the publication of prohibited particulars in any case in which the will contains an express wish that such particulars should not be published. It is a little difficult to think how in practice the printer of a newspaper will know, or is to be required to make the right inquiries which would cause him to know, whether the will contained a prohibition of that kind. I would venture to suggest, without expressing any view about the merits of the matter and appearing as grossly neutral as I can, that the House, in considering whether it should accept the Amendment, should bear that point of substance in mind.

Mr. MacDermot: Will the Solicitor-General say why the same argument does not apply to the publisher of a newspaper and indeed to the editor. because he no doubt knows that the way they receive this information is through agencies who specialise in this work? They do not themselves look up every case, but take the information from the agencies. If they can take it from the agencies, why cannot the printer? Where is the difference?

The Solicitor-General: I do not propose to descend into the arena. I merely indicate that the point is valid in relation to the printer, perhaps the House may think more valid, in the context of the promoters of the Bill of whom I am not one, than in relation to the publisher.
I have been asked about the meaning of the word "publish" in the Bill. I do not fancy having an extemporary shot at pronouncing upon that matter before the courts have done so, and it may be that my hon. Friends, as the Bill goes along, may think it wise to consider whether they would facilitate matters by a definition. The hon. and learned Member


for Edge Hill indicated his view on this topic in column 25 of 17th December:
My understanding is that the word 'publish' in the Bill would have the sense in law of making public certain material and will not have the narrow sense which attaches to it under the law of defamation"—[OFFICIAL. REPORT, Standing Committee C; 17th December, 1958; c. 25.]
Today, we heard the hon. and learned Member for Lewisham, North present the opposite view. If I am invited to decide between them, I should think that under the terms of the Bill there was some likelihood that the hon. and learned Member for Edge Hill was right in his view about what the courts would say, but no doubt the promoters of the Bill will think it right, if the matter goes further, to consider whether the situation would not be clarified by adding some kind of definition of what they mean by "publish".

Mr. MacDermot: As the Solicitor-General has referred to what I said on this point, would he agree that if my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edge Hill is right and an even wider meaning is to be attributed to the word "publish", it makes my argument all the stronger? The wider the definition the more likely it is to include the printer. Even on the narrower definition, if it is a narrower definition, publishing meaning publishing in relation to the law of libel includes the printer. If a wider meaning is to be attributed, would not the Solicitor-General agree that the point which I have made is perfectly valid and that the effect of the Amendment would be precisely nothing?

The Solicitor-General: I should have thought that it worked the other way, but I am not sure whether it is right for me to descend into the arena to this extent. I think that I had better stop speaking about the Amendment. The point of substance which I wanted to make concerned the difficulty of the person involved not being able to know what the contents of the will were.

Sir Charles Mott-Radclyffe: I am a little diffident about intervening in this discussion between the legal luminaries on both sides of the House. I listened to the remarks of the hon. and learned Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) and I thought

that he explained very clearly why, in his view, the words "print or" should be left in. He made the speech that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) should have made, but did not make, in Committee.
It has been asked why my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) and myself put our names to the Amendment. I can tell the House quite simply. We were anxious to show an accommodating spirit to those on both sides of the House who did not see eye to eye with us in Committee on various parts of the Bill. To me, at any rate, as an amateur, the Amendment seemed to be not of any substance at all. If it was meant to be an Amendment of any substance, I suppose that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham would have later tabled an Amendment to deal with the master printer, but he has not done so.
As I have said, the reason why my hon. Friend the Member for Gains-borough and myself put our names to the Amendment was in an attempt to be accommodating to those who do not agree with us on a matter which seemed to us to be comparatively unimportant.

Mr. William Teeling: When I went to bed last night I thought that I was seconding this Amendment. When I came to the House this morning I found that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) had put his name above that of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) and that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe) had put his name beneath mine. I found myself in a position of complete confusion.
My confusion is even greater having listened to the hon. and learned Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) and the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton), and, not receiving any real guidance from the Solicitor-General, I would add still further to the confusion by saying that I would like to withdraw my name from the Amendment and vote against it if it comes to voting.

Question put, That "print or" stand part of the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 32, Noes 25.

Division No. 80.]
AYES
[1. p.m.


Beswick, Frank
Herbison, Miss M.
Robinson, Kenneth (St. Pancras, N.)


Bishop, F. P.
Hicks-Beach, Maj. W. W.
Silverman, Julius (Aston)


Butler, Mrs Joyce (Wood Green)
Jones, David (Ths Hartlepools)
Skeffington, A. M.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Lindgren, G. S.
Storey, S.


Courtney, Cdr. Anthony
Lipton, Marcus
Stross, Dr. Barnett(Stoke-on-Trent, C.)


Crowder, Petre (Ruislip—Northwood
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Teeling, W.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Mcinnes, J.
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
Mitchison, G. R.
Willey, Frederick


Gibson, C. W.
Peart, T. F.



Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)
Plummer, Sir Leslie
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Hastings, S.
Redhead, E. C.
Mr. Kirk and Mr. MacDermot


Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)
Reid, William



NOES


Atkins, H. E.
Hunter, A. E.
Russell, R. S.


Baxter, Sir Beverley
Jeger, George (Gooie)
Sharpies, R. C.


Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)
Johnson, Eric (Blackley)
Studholme, Sir Henry


Channon, H. P. G.
Kimball, M.
wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)


Duthie, W. S.
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfield)
Woollam, John Victor


Finlay, Graeme
Maddan, Martin



Foot, D. M.
Maitland, Hon. Patrick (Lanark)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Hobson, John (Warwick &amp; Leam'gt'n)
Pike, Miss Mervyn
Sir. C. Mott-Radclyffe and


Hornby, R. P.
Rippon, A. G. F.
Mr. Fisher.


Hornsby-Smith, Miss M. P.
Rogers, George (Kensington, N.)

Major Hicks Beach: I beg to move, in page 1, line 9, to leave out "a deceased" and to insert "any".

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Charles MacAndrew): The next Amendment, in line 9, to leave out "deceased person" and insert:
person dying after the commencement of this Act".
could be taken at the same time. I think that the two go together.

Major Hicks Beach: Yes, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. I am much obliged. The purpose of the two Amendments is, in one respect, similar to the purpose of the Amendment with which we have just dealt, in that it is designed to improve the drafting of the Bill and make it workable.
I notice that my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling) and I have not been joined by my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) in putting down the Amendment to leave out "a deceased" and to insert "any". I venture to suggest, from a commonsense point of view rather than a legal approach, that there is no necessity to have the words "a deceased" at all. Presumably, there will be no opportunity to publish the particulars of a will before a person dies. In order to make the Bill read properly, I should have thought that the word "any" should be inserted in substitution for "a deceased" I do not at the moment see how there could be publication of a will until someone

died. It will be interesting to hear from the promoter of the Bill why he drafted it in this way.
My hon. Friend has been so agile and hasty to join me in the Amendment with which we have just dealt—eventually, I had to vote against it for the simple reason that it was badly drawn, although it was my own—and I am wondering now whether he will come to my rescue and support me on this Amendment. I hope he will explain why the Clause was drawn in this way and will indicate in what circumstances he envisages a person's will being published before the person dies. It is quite beyond me. I am only a humble practising solicitor, but it may be that a more agile mind can outline a case where this would arise. It is quite a simple point on which hope I shall hear something from the promoters of the Bill.

Notice taken that. 40 Members were not present; House counted, and,. 40 Members being present—

1.10 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: On a point of order. On your direction, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) was moving the Amendment, in page 1, line 9, to leave out "a deceased" and to insert "any", with which is also being discussed the Amendment to line 9, to leave out "deceased person" and insert:
person dying after the commencement of this Act ".


I may have got this wrong, but I cannot see how those two can be taken together and I was wondering whether we could straighten that out in some way.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: One can move only one Amendment at a time. They are discussed together, but if the first is carried, a second will be moved in manuscript form: after "person" insert:
person dying after the commencement of this Act 
to put it right.

Mr. MacDermot: Further to that point of order. Am I right in thinking that even if the first Amendment is defeated the second Amendment could still be put and would be in order?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It could be if it were called, but it has not been selected for that purpose.

1.15 p.m.

Mr. MacDermot: With respect, I understood both these Amendments were being discussed together. They cannot be moved and put together. When it is said that they will be discussed together, does not that mean that the opportunity will be given to decide on the second Amendment independently of the first, because, with respect, it seems to me that if the first Amendment were defeated, it would still enable the second Amendment to be put. The Clause would then read:
any particulars of the will of a person dying after the commencement of this Act.
I cannot see why the question whether the second Amendment should be put depends on whether or not the first Amendment is carried.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have only just come into the Chair, but I understand the first Amendment is to leave out "a deceased". If it were carried, that would be left out and it would read like this:
Any particulars of the will of a person other than dying after the commencement of this Act.
That would not make sense, would it?

Mr. Kimball: I make it read:
Any person dying after the passing of this Act.

Major Hicks Beach: Perhaps if all three Amendments were taken together I could address you on all three, Sir. I agree with the view that if the first

Amendment is defeated we should be entitled to have a vote on the second Amendment.

Sir L. Plummer: Surely, if the first Amendment is carried and the second Amendment is carried, the Clause would read:
Any particulars of the will of any person person dying after the commencement of this Act.
The word "person" would be duplicated.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The second Amendment will be in manuscript form if the first is carried. If it is desired to discuss this Amendment with that in line 10, after "than", insert:
the name of the deceased person",
as suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham, all well and good.

Major Hicks Beach: The matter has been taken out of my hands because the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) has put his name above mine.

Mr. MacDermot: Not on this one. May I address the Committee on the substance of the Amendment?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We have not got as far as that.

Major Hicks Beach: May I endeavour to clear up the point? I apologise for the complication of the Amendment, but it simply shows that it is an extremely complicated and important matter needing ample consideration.
As I was saying a short time ago, the purport of the first Amendment standing in the name of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling) is, in page 1, line 9, to leave out "a deceased" and insert "any" This is a simple point. The word "deceased" seems quite unnecessary because presumably there would be no opportunity of publishing the particulars of a person's will before that person had in fact died.
That is quite clear. When I was addressing the Committee before, I said that it might well be that there was some point I had overlooked. I was hoping to hear from the hon. Member for Gainsborough the exact reason why he drafted the Clause using the word


"deceased" and not the word "any," which seems to be the correct word.
The second Amendment which stands in my name and in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Brighton, Pavilion is to leave out "deceased person" and to insert:
person dying after the commencement of this Act.
Again, this is a drafting point, and I hope that we shall have some assistance on it from the Solicitor-General, who has been so helpful in the course of our discussions oil the Bill. As I understand it, an Act of Parliament operates strictly from the date of the commencement. The phrase deceased person might possibly be construed to mean only persons dying before the commencement of the Act. All we are seeking to do is to make it clear that the Clause will apply to the wills of people dying after the commencement of the Act, and not only to the wills of those dying before the commencement of the Act.
When I first studied the matter, I was in some doubt about whether this was a proposal which I could feel justified in putting forward, but having gone into the matter, I now feel that that might easily be an interpretation. I hope that the matter will be cleared up by the hon. Member for Gainsborough.
The next Amendment with which I am concerned is that in page 1, line 10, after "than," insert:
the name of the deceased person.
This, too, is a drafting Amendment, but it is a difficult point. The Bill as drawn would allow the publication of the date of the will, the names of the executors and other details, but would not allow publication of the name of the deceased person. That seems to be a peculiar approach. A newspaper will be able to say that Mr. X died worth so much and that the executors were Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith. I cannot believe that that was the intention of the promoters of the Bill, but here again is something for the hon. Member for Gainsborough to make clear.
Those are three simple points and I not propose to detain the House longer. I conclude by apologising for the difficulty which the Amendments have created, but this is a very difficult Bill to interpret.

Mr. Teeling: I beg to second the Amendment.
I do not know whether I am entitled to second the third of the Amendments, because once again the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) has come in to put my name in third rather than second place. My only reason for putting my name to the Amendments is to show how bad the Bill is and how unnecessary it is in many ways. Why on earth should anyone think of publishing a will before the death of the person making it? It is unnecessary and ridiculous.

Mr. Kimball: I am very grateful to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) for the work he has done on the Bill. I only wish that he had came to see me before this morning so that we could have arranged for these things to be done in Committee rather than take up the time of the House.

Major Hicks Beach: My Amendments have been on the Order Paper for more than a week, possibly for ten days. My recollection is that I put them down before the House rose for the Easter Recess.

Mr. Kimball: In order to try to facilitate matters, I added my name to as many Amendments as possible, and I would have added by name to that proposing to leave out "a deceased" and to insert "any", except that I wanted to be quite certain what was in the mind of my hon. and gallant Friend. There was the point that someone might have read about the Bill and might have made a will between December and January and, in the hope that the Bill would become law and that they would not die until after that date, they might not have included a clause in the will to the effect that the will should not be published. We felt that the possibility of someone acting like that was extremely small. My hon. Friends and I are prepared to accept all three Amendments, and I hope that my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham will not find it necessary to vote against the Amendments.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We have not yet reached it, but the second Amendment will have to be redrafted in manuscript form, since it will not make sense as it stands. It will have to read: after "person" insert:
dying after the commencement of this Act".

Mr. MacDermot: I am very grateful for your clarification, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, for I was becoming very confused.
The hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) explained that the reason the first of the three Amendments, to leave out "a deceased" and to insert "any", was put forward was the fear that the expression "a deceased" might be construed to mean a person already deceased at the time the Act was passed. I confess that I should have thought it doubtful whether the courts would have put that construction on the words, but in any event the Amendment is an improvement and it makes clear what is intended. The phrase "the will of a deceased person" is somewhat ungainly, since taken literally it would mean a will made by a deceased person. The wording, "the will of any person" is clearer from that point of view.
There is another possible difference in meaning. Supposing a newspaper were to get hold of a will of someone who was still alive. That would not be the will of a deceased person, and the newspaper would be entitled to publish it. As a matter of fact, a newspaper is entitled to do so now, but I do not think that any mischief or evil has arisen in that connection.
If someone were so foolish as to get off a bus and drop a will which contained interesting particulars, and if that will were taken to a newspaper office, there would be nothing to stop the newspaper publishing it. If the Amendment were accepted, the newspaper would not be able to publish the will. That is somewhat hypothetical, but that is the effect of the Amendment.
The second Amendment in the suggested manuscript form would then insert after the word "person" the words:
dying after the commencement of this Act ".
That seems to be of some substance and of some importance, because we are told that there are already cases where people express a desire in their wills that the contents of the wills should not be published. Those words have no legal sanction and the Press is perfectly free to publish the contents of such a will. However, people who may have liked to have inserted such words may have been advised by their solicitors that they would

have no effect and that there was no point in including them and such people may have taken that advice and refrained from including those words. It would be unjust to have the Bill operating retrospectively when, at the time the will was made, people did not know what the law was to be.
Of course, there are many cases where newspapers have already published the contents of wills. Unless the Amendment is passed, the effect of the Bill would be to make it an offence in any way later to publish something which had already been published. That really would be a quite ludicrous state of affairs. It seems to me that on that ground the case for the second Amendment is also very strong.
1.30 p.m.
The third Amendment, which is to authorise the publication of the name of the deceased person along with the other accepted particulars which may be published is, I think, too obvious to call for comment. It is, perhaps, a matter for comment on the drafting of the Bill that it is only at this late stage that, thanks to the assiduity of the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach), this defect in the Bill has been brought to light.
These are the sort of things, of course, on which normally we rely on the skill of the expert Parliamentary draftsmen to detect for us. This is one of the difficulties that arise when a Private Member's Bill dealing with a great number of legal and technical complications, as this one does, is introduced. I have no doubt that if the Bill goes forward it will be found on its later stages that there are other gaps of errors in it which no one had noted before.
For all these reasons, I agree with what has been said by hon. Members who have already spoken in support of the Amendment, and I would also urge the additional argument which I have put forward.

Amendment agreed to.

Major Hicks Beach: I beg to move, as a manuscript Amendment, in page 1, line 9, after "'person" to insert:
dying after the commencement of this Act".

Mr. Teeling: I beg to second the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 1, line 10, after "than", insert:
the name of the deceased person".—[Mr. Kimball.]

Major Hicks Beach: I beg to move, in page 1, line 10, to leave out from "will" to "or" in line 11.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I suggest that it might be for the convenience of the House if. together with this Amendment, we discussed the next but one Amendment, in page 1, line 11, after "administrator" to insert:
not being a beneficiary under the will".

Major Hicks Beach: This, again, is a rather complicated point which arises owing to the difficult drafting of the Bill. It might, perhaps, be helpful to the House if I read out the Clause—there being so many Amendments to the subsection—as it will read after the last three Amendments have been inserted.
Subsection (1, a) should now read—and I am sure that my hon. Friend will correct me if I am wrong—as follows:
any particulars of the will of any person dying after the commencement of this Act (other than the name of the deceased person, the date of the will, the name of any executor or administrator or particulars relating to a charitable bequest or to a bequest to Her Majesty's Government or any department thereof or to any public or local authority)
The purpose of the Amendment is to delete the words:
the name of any executor or administrator
In my submission, it may be questioned whether, if it is desirable to restrict the particulars of wills for publication, it should be possible to publish the names of executors or administrators who may be beneficiaries under a will. That is the real purpose of the Amendment.
The second Amendment which we are discussing is, again, on a similar point. It would exclude the publication of the name of an executor where he is a beneficiary. I do not propose to magnify this point to any large extent, except to say that I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) is again coming to my assistance. If we proceed as we are going I shall be able to congratulate myself on having practically drafted the whole Bill.
The points raised in these Amendments seem to me to be valid points, and I very much hope that the promoters of the Bill

will give consideration to them. Even if they cannot accept them at this late stage, perhaps they could accept them when the Bill goes, if it does, to another place.
I must confess that as we proceed with the Bill, and the afternoon draws to its close, I should like to ask my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough whether he would not consider it wise, even at this late stage, to withdraw the Bill in order to try to get the matter sorted out and to proceed again at some future date.

Mr. Nigel Fisher: I do not propose to detain the House for long in view of the slow progress that we have made this morning, but, as I understand, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) advanced no argument in support of his Amendment at all. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) will not accept the Amendment.
I think it rather important that the name of the executor or administrator should be known. It would be rather ridiculous if it were not. We get cases where relations of a deceased person may have settled abroad, in the Commonwealth or somewhere else, or even at home in the United Kingdom, and lose touch with the family. It can certainly do no harm to anyone to publish the name of an executor, and in many cases it would be a useful and convenient thing to do.
It may be that a testator has promised a friend or relation a personal memento, perhaps a piece of furniture or a pair of cuff links. The friend or relation may, after the death of the testator, want to know whom to contact. He may want to ask, "What happened to the silver snuffbox which old Tom promised me?" or something of that sort. There is no harm in that. There seems to be a case for including the name of the executor on grounds of convenience and no case at all for excluding it. Certainly, my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham gave no grounds for so doing when moving his Amendment.
The second Amendment, which I understand we are discussing together with this Amendment, seeks to insert:
not being a beneficiary under the Will.
I think that it would be quite wrong to insert those words because, as we all


know, persons often leave an executor a small sum of money for the trouble of being an executor. There is really no harm in that. If we are right in resisting the first Amendment, and if we think that the name of the executor should be published as a matter of general convenience, which is my view, then there seems to be no purpose at all in whittling away the decision which I hope we shall take on the first of my hon. and gallant Friend's Amendments by accepting the second Amendment.
The fact that the executor may himself receive a small sum under the will is not, as far as I can see, relevant to the principle of the Bill or to what it is trying to achieve. Therefore, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Gains-borough will resist both Amendments.

Mr. MacDermot: I confess that I share the difficulty experienced by the hon. Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher) in following the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) in support of the first Amendment. I can see that the argument which he advanced explains the reason for the second Amendment which we are discussing at the same time. Were the Amendment accepted, the effect would be that the power to publish the name of the executor or administrator would be qualified or limited to an executor who was a beneficiary under the will.
The argument is that it would seem anomalous and unfair that one class of beneficiary should have his name published and, in effect, not enjoy the protection of the Bill, whereas other beneficiaries would. I am not saying that I support that argument, but I understand it. The effect of the first Amendment would be to leave out the name of any executor or administrator altogether. In no circumstances would their names be published. If that Amendment be accepted, I think that the second Amendment would fall automatically. I will gladly give way if the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham has anything to add in support of the first Amendment.
That Amendment is opposed by the hon. Member for Surbiton on the ground that it is a matter of convenience to allow the name of the executor or administrator to be published. I am a little confused by the word "administra-

tor". This is not a branch of the law on which I profess to be an expert, but I thought that administrators were concerned with cases of intestacy. Perhaps I am wrong.

Mr. Kimball: It applies to Scotland.

Mr. MacDermot: I am obliged to the hon. Gentleman. That explains it. We, being English lawyers, are constantly confused by Scottish legal terms, but in English law I do not think that it would have any meaning.
It is said that it is a matter of convenience to allow the name to be published because then the relatives of the deceased person, who may be living some way away, will be able to read of the death and the fact that there is a will and, also, they will know who are executors or administrators and be able to get in touch with them. I am wondering whether that argument has any substance. Assuming that the Bill becomes an Act, when will a newspaper have any reason to publish the name of the executor or administrator or, indeed, to publish anything in relation to the will, except in the case of a charitable bequest? Such a bequest may be something of sufficient news value for a newspaper to publish it, but even in that case I do not think that a newspaper would find it of any interest to say that "Mr. Snooks" was the executor. The charity would not know it. So I do not see the circumstances in which the name of an executor or administrator would get published.
There is the further point, that the executor or administrator would, presumably, know who are the beneficiaries under the will and whether or not he was in touch with them. If he was not and desired to get in touch with them, provision is made in the Bill for that. He is given power under Clause 1 (3) in such circumstances, and if he wishes to do so, to put a notice in the personal columns of newspapers, or something of that kind, or to advertise for the beneficiaries. If the executor or administrator does not need to exercise that power, he will be in touch with the beneficiaries already. So, again, from the point of view of necessity and of all these arguments about convenience, I cannot see how in practice the power to publish the names will help.
I wish, further, to inquire what is the point of including the executor or administrator? The hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham has not adduced any reasons in support of his Amendment to leave them out, but why are they there?

1.45 p.m.

Mr. Fisher: In his last sentence the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) has made the point which I was proposing to make when seeking to interrupt him. It is all very well to endeavour to destroy my argument that there is some ground for including the name of the executor or administrator, but that is largely irrelevant, since we are discussing an Amendment for which my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Major Hicks Beach) has not given any reasons. Although in his delightful speech the hon. Member for Lewisham, North has done much to put me in my place, he has done nothing to support the terms of the Amendment.

Mr. MacDermot: I will gladly move on to that, encouraged by those words from the hon. Member for Surbiton.
Let us assume—although perhaps it is a rash assumption—that I have carried the House with me so far. We often hear about a probing Amendment, the object of which is to ascertain the meaning of some words which may appear in a Bill the purpose of which is not plain or understandable. I have often heard it said, "This is a probing Amendment and we want to know why it is that the sponsors of the Bill desire to include these words." I am prepared to take up the torch from the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham and support the Amendment which was seconded with some brevity by the hon. Mernber for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Teeling) and to put this forward as a probing Amendment.
I ask what purpose is served by the inclusion of these words. If there be no purpose, let us not waste time, ink and paper by including them. If the Bill is to become an Act—I sincerely hope that it will not—let us at least have it shipshape and in proper form and order.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: It may well be that this is a probing Amendment. The trouble is that my hon. and gallant Friend who moved it forgot to say so.

Mr. MacDermot: I am not bound by what the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham says or does not say. I can take up the Amendment and put it forward on other grounds if I wish to do so, and I put it forward as a probing Amendment.

Mr. John Hobson: What the argument of the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) leads to is the leaving out of paragraph (a). We cannot have a probing Amendment regarding the name of an executor or administrator. Everyone knows what that means. The argument would be to leave out paragraph (a).

Mr. MacDermot: I put down an Amendment which would very nearly have the effect of leaving out paragraph (a), but it was intimated to me that it was in the nature of a wrecking Amendment and I understood that it would not be called. That is the answer on that point.
What I am probing is not what is the meaning of those words, but why those words have been written into the Bill. To put it another way, why do the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) and the supporters of the Bill feel that newspapers should be allowed to publish the name of the executor or administrator when they will not allow anything other than the exempted particulars to be published? Is there any real purpose in giving the power to include in the particulars the name of the executor or administrator?
We have heard only one argument for doing so, and that was the argument of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Surbiton (Mr. Fisher), who thought that it would be convenient in the circumstances he described. I have dealt with that point and I do not feel there is substance in it. Is there any other reason why it is thought it would be helpful to have those particulars published in newspapers? If not, then I urge that these words should he left out of the Bill, and I support the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Cheltenham.
The second Amendment raises much greater difficulties. I can understand the motives which led the hon. and gallant Gentleman to put it down, but its effect


might be undesirable. He is saying that it is rather unfair that one lot of beneficiaries should be protected from publication but that another person should not be protected just because he happens to be the executor or administrator. My answer is that I think the inclusion of those words in the Bill would produce a greater evil, namely, the danger that the passing of the Bill would make it easier for evilly disposed persons to bring undue influence to bear upon testators.
Regrettably, it is true that cases occur where people find an aged, and perhaps infirm, person of substance with no near relatives and induce that person to make a will in their own favour. When that is done, to preserve the shroud of secrecy for that evilly disposed person, it is necessary to write his own name into the will as the executor. This is a subject which, presumably, we shall be discussing at greater length when we consider a later Amendment on the Notice Paper. It is relevant to this Amendment, however, because if there were written into the Bill an exemption from publication of the name of the executor or administrator who was a beneficiary, the result would be that it would be precisely in the case when publication might have given some protection that the protection would be taken away—that is, the protection of the aged testator against the evilly disposed person. We are not dealing here with the beneficiary, because we are dealing with a class of beneficiary who ought not to be protected.
This is not a new development. There are cases to be found in the law courts, going back over the centuries, where executors have brought undue influence to bear on testators to have dispositions made in their own favour; so much so, that a whole body of case law has developed on the subject. The latest is the Wintle case, which was decided in the House of Lords recently. It is apparent from that and other cases that the law in its wisdom has found it necessary to scrutinise most carefully any will which makes a substantial bequest to the executor, particularly in a case where the executor is also the legal adviser of the testator. Indeed, in one old case the phrase was used that those circumstances should "excite the jealousy of the court." That was the emotion which was sup-

posed to be aroused in the court when it heard of these things.
There is no doubt that the publication of large bequests to executors in such circumstances may well excite the jealousy of other persons, and it is a perfectly proper anxiety, which may lead to action being taken to have the will set aside to prevent a serious injustice. If, however, these words were written into the Bill, they would afford a protection of that kind to an evilly-minded person. So, for my part, even if the first Amendment is carried, I sincerely hope that the second Amendment will not be accepted. For the reasons I have given, unless we hear a better explanation of the reasons for the first Amendment, I would be disposed to oppose it.

Mr. J. Hobson: I will address myself to the first Amendment only because I hope that it will be defeated and then we need not consider the second one.
The only argument advanced so far in favour of the first Amendment is that of the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot), who said that, in any event, no one will publish particulars of a will, or the name of the executor, because there will not be publication, and should the executor or administrator desire to trace the relatives, they can under Clause 1 (3) advertise in the newspapers, so that right is preserved to them.
There are circumstances which can easily be imagined in which persons other than the executor or administrator might well desire to draw the attention of the public to the fact that the will exists, in an effort to discover whether they can obtain any information about the making of it. Therefore, if such a person desired to give publicity to the existence of such a will, it would be essential that particulars of the will giving the name of the person, the date of the will and the name of the person appointed as executor in England should be published, so that if an attack were made on that executor he could be identified. If he were the kind of person to whom the hon. Gentleman referred as being one who had procured the making of the will in his favour, and had made himself the executor, that would be just the occasion on which it should be possible


for such facts to be published in the newspapers.
This subsection envisages that there are certain circumstances in which the fact that the will existed should be disclosed, though not the details of the personal bequests or the amount of those bequests. That is why it is necessary to identify the will, to show what is stated in it and who is the executor. That is why it is not desirable that the words proposed by this Amendment to be left out should be deleted.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Will someone move and second the Amendment to line 11, which we have been discussing with this Amendment?

Mr. MacDermot: As the first Amendment has been carried, in effect, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, the second Amendment falls automatically. I do not think that the second Amendment would make any sense.

2.0 p.m.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I thought it was the other way round. We have left out words and now we want to put in other words in the second Amendment which goes with the first.

Mr. Kirk: We go down to the words: "any executor or administrator,". If we insert the words the position will be ridiculous.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Have we not left out "executor or administrator"?

Mr. Kirk: Yes, we have.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: So what goes with it is to put in the words in the second Amendment. If hon. Members do not wish to move it, they need not do so. but the two Amendments go together.

Mr. MacDermot: The two Amendments were discussed together and if the first Amendment had been defeated the second could have been put, but, as the first Amendment has been carried and these words have been left out, does not the second Amendment fall automatically because the words in that Amendment were only to qualify the words which now have been left out?

Major Hicks Beach: That certainly was try understanding.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That being so, let us get on with the next Amendment. The next two Amendments go together.

Mr. Bishop: I beg to move, in line 11, after "to", to insert:
a bequest of a work of art or literature or of the copyright in any such work or to".
As you say, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, this Amendment might be discussed with the following Amendment in my name, in line 11, after "to" to insert:
a bequest of any article or collection of articles the disposition of which may be of interest to any section of the public by reason of its intrinsic value or of its historical, artistic. or local associations or to".
If necessary, could they be voted upon separately?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I should imagine that they would have to be put separately, but if the Question were defeated I should think that would do. I was not proposing to call the second Amendment for another Division.

Mr. Bishop: The effect of the first Amendment would be to permit any particulars to be published of
a bequest of a work of art or literature".
If the second Amendment were also accepted, particulars could be published of
a bequest of any article or collection of articles the disposition of which may be of interest to any section of the public by reason of its intrinsic value or of its historical, artistic, or local associations".
I agree that these two Amendments go closely together. The reason I divided them was that I thought my hon. Friends and the House might conceivably think differently about the specific case of a work of art or literature and the more general terms in the second Amendment. If that were so, I did not want to risk losing half a loaf in the effort to obtain more. I hope that it will not he necessary to face that problem and that my hon. Friend will feel able to accept both these Amendments.
I think that the Amendments speak for themselves. They are based on an argument which I am sure will be accepted by both sides of the House and by all hon. Members. It is that there are certain forms of property which, although they may be privately-owned, are, nevertheless, property in which the public has a legitimate interest and, therefore, a right to information. There are still a great


many houses in which there are valuable, sometimes unique, collections of pictures, furniture, libraries and so on, which are privately-owned. I am in favour of that and not at all in favour of the idea that everything of this kind which has a national value and is of interest to the public as a whole should find its way into public museums.
Houses in which these treasures remain are one of the features of this country which we shall do well to preserve. I am sure all my hon. Friends would agree with me in that. One of the essential conditions of the private ownership of great works of art or great collections of silver, furniture or books is that the owners, in a real measure, regard themselves as trustees for the public of treasures in which the public as a whole has an interest.
Therefore, the public has a legitimate interest in what might happen to those articles when the owner dies and bequeaths them in his will. In many cases, no doubt, they pass as heirlooms and are not within the control of the individual under his will, but that certainly is not the case in every instance. It is with those instances in which he may have within his power the disposition of treasures of this kind that these Amendments are designed to deal. I do not want to put the case on the basis of articles which may be of interest to the public as a whole because of their character or value. There are many cases in which same limited section of the community may have a perfectly legitimate interest and a right for information.
I shall give one or two instances of the sort of things these Amendments are designed to cover. I have not made any sort of systematic research. I have not looked into the kind of newspapers which, in discussion on various stages of our debates on the Bill, have been accused of wounding private feelings by unnecessary intrusion into private matters. During the last two or three weeks I have noted in The Times, which I read at breakfast every morning, some items which illustrate and justify the purpose of these Amendments.
Almost every day The Times gives a paragraph headed "Wills and Bequests", or "Latest Wills". In the examples I have with me, it gives brief statistics of

recent wills and picks out for mention items it considers to be of interest, without any desire for scandal or to build up some artificial story which could be wounding to people. It gives facts which the news editor of The Times considers should be published. Presumably, they are obtained from an agency such as the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) mentioned, and they are items of genuine interest to some of the readers of the newspaper.
Looking at just a few of the cases reported in The Times in the last week or two, I see that on 21st February there was a reference to a lady who left £45,000 gross—not very much—and who left her picture the "Magnificat," by Botticelli, as a bequest under her will. I will not mention the names in these cases unless I am particularly asked to do, although they have been published. I do not know what was the value of this picture, and I may add that it is not a case which would justify my argument because the bequest was made to the Newcastle Corporation and presumably, therefore, under the Bill it would have been permissible to mention it. If it were in her free disposition, as presumably it was, it might equally well have been left to a private individual, however, and in that case it would become illegal under the Bill for The Times to mention the bequest, if, for any other reason, she included in her will a request that the details should not be published.
I do not think that anyone can question that the disposition under a will of a picture by Botticelli is a matter of legitimate interest to considerable sections of the public, and to suggest that the newspapers of the country should be prohibited from mentioning such a bequest appears to me ridiculous. In view of the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) has put his name at the top of some other Amendments which have been put down to the Bill, I am disappointed that he has not put his name at the top of these two Amendments. Had he done so, he would have been able to move them himself, and I am sure that he could have done so very much better than I.
I will proceed with one or two examples, from items which could be of interest to the public concerning the disposition of some great picture or some


great collection of pictures or some library or some famous collection of manuscripts to items which are not of that character but which, nevertheless, it is equally justifiable, I think, for newspapers to mention. While speaking of pictures, perhaps I may recall that on Second Reading of the previous Bill, two years ago, I referred to certain portraits which an ex-member of a famous regiment had bequeathed to the then commanding officer of the regiment.
Although that may not be a matter of general public interest, it is a matter of considerable interest to a limited number of people, perhaps scattered over the country and even abroad. Ex-members of that regiment would be interested to be told that certain portraits which had been collected of former commanding officers of the regiment had been bequeathed to then commanding officer so that they could be shown in the mess room for all time.
2.15 p.m.
I have another case to mention from The Times of 1st April. I hope that the date is in no way significant. It is an item which The Times has picked out for mention in connection with the will of lady who left a small estate of gross value £7,586, net £7,374, duty paid £221. Those are the basic figures which The Times gives, and although it would be out of order on this Amendment I should be prepared to argue, if the opportunity arose, that it is right and reasonable that those bare statistics should be published by a newspaper of any will.
In this will The Times picked out for mention the fact that this lady left
the teaset given to my mother by Queen Victoria
to her daughter Antoinette. Against the background of the matters which we are discussing that may sound relatively trivial, but I hope that the House will not take that view of it. If the news editor of The Times picks out such an item as being worthy of publication, we may reasonably conclude that he knows what he is doing and has good reason for doing it. He does not do it for any reasons of scandal or of seeking to promote the sale of his paper. He will certainly not acquire additional readers by publishing such an item. He publishes it for the reason that he knows from his experience that somewhere in the

country, or possibly in other countries, there are a few people to whom that simple item of news may well be the most interesting and most important in the paper that day.
Anyone who has had the advantage, which I have had, of being brought up in a large family with widespread connections, and especially where there were any Irish connections, can well understand the implications of the publication of such an item. When the old lady passes on there are a number of people all over the world who are interested in knowing not the amount of the estate—in this case it is only £7,000, which in itself is of no particular significance—but what happened to the famous teaset which as children they knew was the treasured item in the household, the famous teaset often referred to as "presented to my mother by Queen Victoria".
If the news editor of The Times, rightly or wrongly, thinks it of sufficient interest to some of his readers to pick out that item to mention, why should we challenge his judgment and why should the House be asked to say that it should be made illegal for him to publish little items of news of that sort? I suggest that it is a matter which the House can well leave to the discretion of The Times rather than seek to impose censorship.
I have referred in discussing these two Amendments to articles such as pictures, collections, libraries and manuscripts and the interest of the general public, or it may be only a limited section of the public, in knowing what happens to these articles when the owner of them dies and they are bequeathed under a will.
There is also mentioned in the first Amendment the copyright in any work of art or literature. That also is a matter which we ought to consider. Where copyrights pass under a will, it is of considerable interest and importance that some means should be available to the public or to those who may be interested in the disposition of the copyright for finding where they have gone.
It is not a sufficient answer to this to say that anybody can go to Somerset House, pay 1s. and obtain the information. The interested people may be a long way from Somerset House. They may not be accustomed to the kind of procedures that have to be followed to obtain information of this kind. Unless


the Press is allowed to draw attention to these matters, these people may not even become aware of the death that has caused a disposition of these rights.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough has provided in his Bill that bequests to a charity or to a public authority may still be published, I do not know why he could not have made some provision for bequests of the kind that I am now referring to, which have nothing to do with the amount of a person's estate, the beneficiaries or the financial provisions of the will. They are concerned solely with the disposition of articles of genuine interest, either to the public as a whole or to some specific group of members of the public.
Although I am formally moving only the first Amendment, I hope that my hon. Friend, although he has not taken the opportunity of putting his name to the Amendments, will be able to say that he can and will accept them.

Mr. Kirk: I beg to second the Amendment, which has been so fully and ably moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop).
It is quite clear, and it will be accepted by everybody, that certain works of art or of literature, though they belong—and we all acknowledge that they belong—to private persons, are held by those private persons as it were on trust for the country as a whole. I know that some people think that all such works should be held by the country and be freely accessible. I do not go anywhere near as far as that, and I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central that it is good and right that some of these works of art should still remain in private hands.
But I agree also with the thesis behind the Amendment that disposal of such works is very much a matter of public concern and therefore it is right that no hindrance or bar of any kind should be placed on the general public knowing where they are and who has them at any particular moment. The Bill, as at present drafted, means that if any work of art—my hon. Friend cited the case of a Botticelli "Magnificat"—were to change hands after the publication of the Bill it might even go outside the country and the general public would not know

anything about it. That is of some concern to everybody.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins: May I point out that a work of art could go outside this country now if the owner were to sell it? He need not say anything about it and no one would know anything about it.

Mr. Kirk: My hon. Friend is quite wrong. It could not go outside this country now without anybody knowing anything about it, even if it were bequeathed under a will, because of the export restrictions upon works of art.
The point is that a work of art can change hands and go out of the country. If that happened now, it would be done in nearly every case—I cannot conceive of a case in which it would not be done in this way—at a public sale where the details of the auction or however it changed hands were published, because such sales are held at places like Christies or Sothebys. If a work is bequeathed under a will, I know of very few cases where there have been private transactions of this kind.

Mr. F. M. Bennett: Would my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk) care to comment on the position when it is done by way of gift, which very frequently happens, in which case there certainly would not be any publicity during the lifetime of the testator or afterwards?

Mr. Kirk: There would be afterwards. There nearly always is, anyway, especially if the work goes out of the country.

Mr. Bennett: Let us leave aside the work going out of the country. If the work were given during the lifetime of the donor, there would be no publicity. If it were given within five years of his death, the question of Estate Duty might arise on the gross estate. That would not mean that the actual fact of the gift could be publicised unless those concerned wished it.

Mr. Kirk: It is perfectly true that there is a very good possibility—

Mr. MacDermot: That is not a correct statement of the position. The newspapers are perfectly free to publicise in any way they want the fact that a gift has been made by one person to another. There is no kind of restriction


or prohibition upon that. If their reporters discover that a gift of a valuable work, say a Botticelli painting, has been made, whether outside or inside the country, they can publish it. There is no statutory prohibition upon that. I cannot see the parallel.

Mr. Bennett: I think that the interruption of the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) was levelled more at me than at my hon. Friend the Member for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk). There is no legal bar upon it, but publication need not take place regarding a gift if it is the wish of the donor and of the recipient. If the terms of the gift provide that they do not wish publicity, there is no method at present by which newspapers can extract that information, if it is withheld from them.

Mr. Kirk: My hon. Friend the Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett) speaks wildly when he says that there is no way by which the newspapers can obtain the information. Newspapers are constantly obtaining information which people do not want published. Sometimes it is a good thing. Sometimes it is a bad thing. In this case I happen to think that it would be a rather good thing.
As the hon. Member for Lewisham, North has rightly pointed out, if a picture were given from A to B and a newspaper discovered that and published it, provided that the newspaper made no misstatement of fact or cast no aspersions upon it, there is no legal redress by anybody.
For the first time, the principle is being introduced that these works, which are of public concern and interest, can be transferred from one owner to another owner and the newspapers cannot and dare not publish the news, and if they publish they will be subject to the penalties stated in the Bill.
That is a very serious innovation and one which must be justified on some ground or other. So far we have had very little justification for the Bill as a whole. I acknowledge that as regards money a faint case can be made out. Where works of art of national importance are involved, a very special case must be made before the House should willingly consent to an absolute ban for twenty-five years on publication

of the whereabouts of pictures which are the concern of all of us.
For that reason, I warmly welcome the proposal put forward by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central and I very much hope that the House will accept the Amendment.

2.30 p.m.

Sir L. Plummer: One of the strongest points in favour of the Bill was raised on Second Reading by my hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish). It was that it would do a great deal to stop the prying of the Press into the private lives of, perhaps, little people living in the back streets of our cities who were left a quite insignificant sum of money—a sum which, by its very smallness, indicated that the person leaving the money held the legatee in some sort of disfavour.
As my hon. Friend said, it is quite wrong that people getting such a tiny benefit should be hounded by the newspapers. My hon. Friend put that point with some strength but, having listened to the speeches of the hon. Members for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop) and for Gravesend (Mr. Kirk), and having read the Amendment. I can see absolutely no objection to it, because it does not give anybody the opportunity to pry into anybody else's private life or to subject them to a sort of behaviour referred to by my hon. Friend.
Those of us who rose early enough this morning, heard on the radio that £500,000 was left some time ago to the British Museum by someone living in Switzerland. That was a piece of news. The British public are entitled to know who left the money, to what purpose the British Museum put it. and so on. I am well aware that, under the terms of the Bill. if a similar sum were left to the British Museum it would be permissible for that fact to be published, but there are other analogous things that the British public are entitled to know.
One result of the Welfare State, so ably introduced into this country by the party to which I have the honour to belong, is that the ordinary people now have more than a nodding acquaintance with a great many large and magnificent buildings, and a great number of pictures, works of art and objets d'art. Every week throughout each summer they


fork out their half-crowns, put them into a ducal hand and are guided over the great ancestral home. They therefore have an interest in what is going on there. Whatever happens to that building is then a matter of public interest.
If there is one obligation that our Press possesses above all else, it is the obligation to publish news. The interest in these buildings means that they have a great news value, and if a duke, on being called to his fathers, wills his property away, the people who have some acquaintance with that property ought to know to whom it has been left, or should know its intrinsic value. The Bill would prevent them from having that knowledge.
These buildings are largely part of our heritage. What happens to Blenheim, what happens to Chatsworth, what happens to Longleat, affects not only those who temporarily own them but every single person in the country; and is particularly of interest to those living on the estates or in the vicinity, and to those who have in the past visited and enjoyed the splendours that those buildings represent. It is a complete negation of the liberty of the Press to prevent it from performing its obligation to tell its readers exactly what has happened to property of such national public interest.
There is also the question of copyright. When Mr. George Bernard Shaw left the copyrights in his plays to the Authors Society they were, intrinsically, worth a huge sum of money. I believe that it was his wish that the value of the copyrights should be used to tinker with the alphabet—a wish now upset by law. Is it not the concern, and the very proper and legitimate interest of those who have seen Shaw's plays, or who have read his plays and prefaces, to know what he did with the copyrights? Indeed, a certain technical point arises here, too. Copyrights die, and the works come into the public domain. We should know to whom copyrights are bequeathed in this fashion.
This is not merely a question of the possessions of people who are very much in the public eye. The hon. Member for Harrow, Central, spoke of people who may own one particular object which is of very considerable importance.
I know of a man who, the other day, with great shrewdness bought one of Constable's paintings for a few guineas. He was able to do so because he knows a good deal about that painter's work and could distinguish from the painting of the sky that it was a painting by Constable over which another picture had been painted.
This is a very important picture to have. The disposition of the paintings of Constable is of some considerable interest, if not to the general totality of the public, certainly to art lovers, art students, art critics, and so on. It may be a comparatively small circle, but it is an important one. When we have a painting of such imperishable interest and value as this, why should it be decided that people ought not to know to whom it has been left?
The real danger of the Bill is that it interferes with the right of the people to know what they are entitled to know. I am not asking that anybody should pry into other people's private lives. We on this side have argued over and over again that there has been an abuse of the privileges of the Press in its prying into things—

Mr. Willey: Perhaps my hon. Friend will answer something that arises from that, in relation to works of literature. I suppose that any of the writings of the hon. Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter) might be regarded as works of literature. Would it not be better to provide some qualification to that definition to safeguard reference to all such writings, which might be bequeathed to the hon. Member's family?

Sir L. Plummer: If it were a work by the hon. Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter) it would, I am sure, be imperishable literature—golden literature, at any rate—so one knows that anything he left would have a good deal of public interest—

Sir Beverley Baxter: I am much flattered by the attention suddenly concentrated upon me. I can only say that if there were ever to be any great value in my manuscripts it would be if there were a shortage of paper, when they could be sold by the ton. I am sure that they would have little value otherwise.

Sir L. Plummer: The hon. Member belittles himself. I am sure that we all await his memoirs with bated breath, and hope that they will be published long before his demise.
To answer the point put by my hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), I would accept as literature, broadly speaking, anything that had been published, though that, as the House will appreciate, is a snap reply. If I had a Gothenburg Bible, I would regard it as a great literary work. If I had the manuscript of a work by Bernard Shaw, for example, I would regard that as a great literary work. If I had the manuscript of a work by Marie Corelli, I would not bother to leave it to anybody. I think that we could easily define what constitutes a literary work and what constitutes a painting.
Nor need we argue about whether the painting be good or bad for it to be regarded as a work of art. Contemporary judgments differ. What is accepted as a work of art is clearly definable. If necessary, it could be based on a valuation. We could say that anything over the value of, say, £5 or £10 would, for the purposes of this Bill only, constitute a work of art.
As I was saying, we on this side have made considerable complaints about the interference by the Press in the private lives of people who, for some reason or other, have been dragged into the news. This Clause would not empower the Press to do that. It would enable the Press and broadcasting and television authorities—both the B.B.C. and the I.T.A.—to make comments on matters which are of legitimate public interest and which, therefore, are well within their terms of operation. It is for that reason, and because I believe that this Amendment improves what at the moment is a confused and not very good Bill, that I give the Amendment my support.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I have considerable sympathy with the Amendment moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop). We all like to see a work of art, whether a piece of furniture or a collection of pictures or books, retained in private hands. To that extent, I am 100 per cent. with my hon. Friends.
I also have considerable sympathy with the argument used by the hon. Member for Deptford (Sir L. Plummer). If I thought this Amendment really achieved what my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central set out to achieve, I would support it, but I am in one difficulty. The Amendment is drawn too widely. I beg my hon. Friend to believe that this is a perfectly genuine objection and that I am not just being tiresome.

Mr. Ede: The hon. Member is never tiresome.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I am obliged to the right hon. Gentleman. That is about the only compliment that he has ever paid me.
The Amendment as at present drafted is drawn too widely. Who defines what is a work of art or a work of literature? Who defines its intrinsic or historic value? How is the dividing line drawn? If the matter were to be left to the judgment of the art correspondent of The Times I would be perfectly happy, but that is not to be the case.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central mentioned a picture by Botticelli. Let us suppose that every picture in the United Kingdom painted by Botticelli is of sufficient artistic importance that the public ought to know where it is. I give that argument to my hon. Friend. I know that he likes pictures, and so do I. Would my hon. Friend apply the same principle to all pictures painted by Canaletto? Would he say that all Canalettos are of such artistic merit that the public ought to know where they are?

Mr. Bishop: Yes.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: Should the same principle be applied to one of his pupils, Samuel Scott?

Mr. Bishop: Surely my hon. Friend realises that I was not basing my argument upon the intrinsic value of a picture. May I cite as another illustration the case of a portrait, I believe of the Duke of Cambridge, which was bequeathed to the commanding officer of a certain regiment? That picture may be worthless as a picture, but it was of interest to the regiment. That bequest should have been published.

2.45 p.m.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I think that that would anyway have been excluded from the Bill as a charitable bequest. I think my hon. Friend must face the difficulty which I have encountered, namely, that I do not know where the line is to be drawn. Who defines, when looking through a list of bequests, what is or is not of intrinsic historical or artistic value?

Sir L. Plummer: The hon. Gentleman says that he is in some difficulty over this question of intrinsic value. The Inland Revenue is able to put a value on everything that a man leaves. Surely, if the Inland Revenue put a certain value on a picture, say, £5,000, that is good enough for the purpose of this Amendment. There is an intrinsic value.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: But, as the hon. Member surely knows, the publication of a will precedes the detailed valuation. Sometimes valuations are not made until two or three years later. What is the editor of a newspaper to do? Is he to telephone the testator's solicitor and ask for a valuation, pointing out that if the probate valuation is £5,025 he can publish it but if it is £4,095 he cannot?

Major Hicks Beach: My hon. Friend says that valuations are sometimes not settled for some years, and that it is only necessary to put in an estimated value. I am a little surprised at my hon. Friend's ignorance. The value is estimated and is settled with the district valuer later.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I am not quite so ignorant as all that. If an estimated value is put in, it may vary in the next two or three years by as much as 50 per cent. or 60 per cent.
The hon. Member for Deptford was talking about bequests made in respect of royalties from books and in respect of copyright. I am not an expert on this matter. How does one decide whether the royalties from a book are of sufficient value to be included? What is the value of a piece of literature? Is it the amount of public attention which it attracts? Is it its literary merit? I do not know how the line is to be drawn.

Mr. A. J. Irvine: Will the hon. Gentleman, who is placing great emphasis on this point, say in what respect any of these admittedly

difficult issues to which he has referred are less justiciable, less appropriately submitted to Her Majesty's judges than, for example, the issues of policy for which his own Government have made the Restrictive Practices Court responsible?

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: The hon. and learned Gentleman should compare like with like. We are dealing with an Amendment which seeks to exclude certain restrictions imposed by a Bill on articles of artistic and historical value.

Mr. Bishop: There is nothing in the Amendment about financial values. The word "intrinsic" is included as one of the qualifications—intrinsic or artistic or historical or local value. No question of finance arises.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: I agree with my hon. Friend. It was the hon. Member for Deptford who brought in the financial consideration, and not I. The financial test is probably the worst yardstick of all. I do not think it is always possible to judge a work of art—a picture or a piece of furniture or whatever it may be—solely by a nominal value which may be placed upon it. I am with my hon. Friend on that.
The hon. Gentleman the Member for Deptford also referred to the news on the B.B.C. that someone had left £500,000 to the British Museum. He thought that that was a legitimate item of news. I agree. It would not be in any way restricted by the Bill. Fears on that score, I think, are groundless.
My objection to the Amendment which has been moved and seconded by my hon. Friends is that, in certain cases, the fact that a collection of pictures has been left to a particular individual, perhaps to a child who has another six or seven years of minority to run, might very well attract precisely the publicity that the Bill seeks to prevent, and to that extent very largely destroy the whole purpose of the Bill which my hon. Friends and I are seeking to bring in.
I have one final word to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow, Central. I cannot conceive that anyone who includes in his will works of art or literature in the sense which my hon. Friend means could normally have any objection to its publication. If he specifically states in his will, as this Bill


allows him to do, that he does not want the contents published, and if that includes works of art, the testator would clearly have some very strong reasons for excluding from publication in his will those works of art.
If that were the case, I would respect the right of any individual to withhold the publication of any items in his will for any reason which he might have, whether right or wrong. That is really my objection to the Amendment.

Mr. MacDermot: I hope that we shall have the benefit of the assistance of the learned Solicitor-General on the interesting legal points which have been raised by the hon. Member for Windsor (Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe). He suddenly developed, in the last few moments of his interesting contribution to our debate, a somewhat different line of argument. Until then, I understood him to be in sympathy with the Amendment and, indeed, he went so far as to say that if he thought that it would achieve the result which the hon. Member who moved it had wanted, he would vote for it. I find that a little difficult to reconcile with his closing words, but it is my recollection that that is what he said.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: My closing words sought to explain to the House and to the hon. Gentleman why I thought my hon. Friend's Amendment did not achieve what it sought to achieve.

Mr. MacDermot: Until that moment the hon. Member had been basing his arguments as to why he thought it would not achieve the purpose which the hon. Member who moved the Amendment wanted to achieve on the grounds that it was impossible for anyone to draw the line. He elaborated those difficulties by instancing cases of works of art and he asked the question rhetorically: who could say whether or not a particular work was a work of art? He accepted that all works by Botticelli were, and he was prepared to accept that all works by Caneletto were. He then confronted the House with the conundrum about works of art by a pupil called Samuel Scott. That left the House severely silenced.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: For the sake of argument, I said that I would agree that Canelettos were, although I would

not personally take that view—there are too many very doubtful Canalettos knocking about.

Mr. MacDermot: I thought that I detected a note of doubt in the hon. Member's voice concerning Canaletto. I think that for purposes of his argument he was prepared to accept it and that only to bring home his Parthian shot afterwards did he bring in Mr. Samuel Scott. Whether some hon. Members, like myself, who are not very familiar with those works and are much better acquainted with the work of Botticelli find it difficult to make up their minds, I know not; at any rate, they were silenced.
But surely that is not the point. In respect of any matter of this kind, where we in our wisdom lay down the law that something or other would be an offence, we can find a borderline case and say that it is difficult to decide on which side of the borderline a particular instance falls. It is very fortunate that that should be so. Otherwise, I and other hon. Members who belong to the legal profession would find it difficult to earn our living. It is in determining these matters that the courts are kept busy.
The hon. Member did not like the example given by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Liverpool, Edge Hil (Mr. A. J. Irvine) referring to the Restrictive Practices Court and asked him to compare like with like. Rather tentatively, I will seek to do so, and I draw for an example upon an Amendment moved by the Solicitor-General in an interesting Committee we had upstairs on the Obscene Publications Bill.
The Solicitor-General moved an Amendment suggesting that it should be a defence to a charge of publishing an obscene publication to show that publication of the work was for the public good by reason of the fact that it was in the interest of science, literature, art or other questions of public concern. Exactly the same question as has been posed by the hon. Member for Windsor can be posed in relation to that defence concerning a particular work. A particular work which was on everyone's lips in Committee upstairs was "Lolita". There are many other examples with which hon. Members who have followed the discussion on the Obscene Publications


Bill will be familiar. Whether the publication of any work of that kind is in the interests of literature or, in the case of a picture, in the interests of art, obviously might be a difficult question to decide in a borderline case. That is not, however, a reason for rejecting the Amendment or rejecting the setting up of a defence of that kind in that Bill.
Here is an example which is comparing like with like. The fact that there are difficult borderline cases is in no way an argument against the Amendment which we are discussing. We are here dealing with a matter of public interest which is comparable to the interest shown in charitable bequests. An exception has been made in the Bill about charitable bequests so that even if a testator decides to leave a vast fortune to the cats' and dogs' home, or whatever the charity is, and even though he expresses in the will a wish that that bequest is not to be published, nevertheless, if the Bill is passed and becomes law, the newspapers will be allowed to publish it in spite of the declared wish to the contrary of the testator.
3.0 p.m.
Why should that be? Why do the promoters of the Bill allow that exception to be made? It is presumably because they consider that the public interest in such a case of a charity should overrule the wish of the testator. I suggest that on that point they are quite right. I do not like the Bill at all, but if we are to have it, clearly that is a right principle. If it is a right principle in relation to charitable bequests, surely, equally, it is a right principle in relation to works of art or literature or historical association, and so on, which, again, are in the public interest.

Sir C. Mott-Radclyffe: It is easy to define a charitable bequest. My difficulty is to know how to define a work of art or literature or something of intrinsic value.

Mr. MacDermot: The hon. Member was a little rash in that intervention, which caused merriment, even on the part of his right hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General. If there is one phrase more than another which serves to keep lawyers alive it is the phrase "charitable bequest" One of the most

difficult things to determine in the law is whether a particular bequest is a charitable bequest. Every year, I suppose, there are cases which go right up to the House of Lords to determine that question.
We shall have an opportunity, perhaps, of considering the matter a little further in relation to the next Amendment, if it is called. I assure the hon. Member, however, that that is an exceedingly difficult matter to decide and that he cannot draw any support or encouragement for his argument from the fact that there is an inclusion in the Bill of an exception relating to charitable bequests.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins: The hon. Member avoided my hon. Friend's question. Can he give us the benefit of his great legal knowledge by telling somebody who has no knowledge of the legal profession what is his idea of a work of art?

Mr. MacDermot: It would not be of the slightest relevance for any court which had to decide the matter to know my view of what was a work of art. Even if I were briefed in the case my personal opinion would be of no relevance. The only lawyer in the court whose opinion on that subject would be of any importance would be the learned judge. Nobody else's would matter. Whether a bequest was a work of art is something which the court would have to decide with the assistance of such expert witnesses as might be called before the court on the subject. In such a case, either party to the proceedings would be allowed to call as expert witnesses persons who had, through their experience, special knowledge of artistic works and who would then be able to tell the court whether, in their view, a particular work was a work of art and the reasons why they held that view.

Mr. Bennett: The hon. Member appears to be directing all his remarks towards the first of the two Amendments dealing with works of art. Is that because he is coming to the second one later? So far, nothing that the hon. Member has said gives any reason to suppose that he supports the second Amendment. The purport of his argument appears to be in favour of the first and against the second Amendment.

Mr. MacDermot: I am trying to deal so fully with interventions that I have had no opportunity yet to come to the second Amendment. I am, however, encouraged by the fact that I appear to have the interest of the hon. Member for Torquay (Mr. F. M. Bennett) and that he appears to be interested to know my views on the second Amendment.

Mr. Bennett: So long as they are not contradictory.

Mr. MacDermot: I do not think that the Amendments themselves are contradictory. They overlap. Clearly, many works of art would be articles which were of interest to a section of the public by reason of their intrinsic or artistic value. Clearly, examples could overlap. Indeed, it is difficult to think of any work of art properly so called which would not fall within the category of the second Amendment. I prefer the second Amendment, although I do not think that there is any harm in the first, because it explicity states the principle which should justify the publication, namely, the fact that the disposition of the article or collection of articles is something of public interest.

Notice taken that 40 Members were not present:

House counted, and, 40 Members being present—

Mr. MacDermot: I was seeking to explain why I thought the second Amendment was better than the first, although I do not think there would be any harm in both of them being passed. They would overlap. My own view is that the second Amendment is preferable because it draws attention to the public interest. Also, it goes a little wider in that it deals not only with works of artistic or literary merit but with works which have historical or local associations. These and their disposition can be a matter of very great interest locally. Without wasting the time of the House by enumerating examples, one can well imagine many objects with a strong local association and of strong local interest so that when the owner of them dies and bequeaths them to someone else in the locality the local Press would be well pleased to be able to publish that bequest. It would be a matter of considerable local interest to do so.
In those circumstances, irrespective of the intention of the testator, the Press should be allowed to publish and the public should be allowed to have that information in exactly the same way as they would be allowed it in the case of a charitable bequest if the Bill becomes law.

Mr. Willey: I rise only because the Solicitor-General is still silent.

Sir L. Plummer: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is neutral.

Mr. Willey: I share his neutrality, but I am anxious to know what we are asked to vote about. I have taken the luxury of hearing the debate in order to be better advised on how I should vote on the Amendments. I have heard the arguments for the Amendments, which I think are clear enough, but I think that they are unrelated to the Amendments themselves. I find the greatest difficulty in knowing what a work of art or, in particular, what a work of literature is. On reading them, I thought that the purpose of the Amendments was to provide a guide to burglars. On the merits, they have this disadvantage, too, that if other bequests are not revealed a misleading impression can be created. A child may receive a bequest of a Botticelli, but other bequests may be made to other children and a wrong impression may be created if this is the only bequest revealed.
I assume from the debate that the main purpose of the Amendments is to wreck the Bill—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."]—or to express disapproval of the Bill. As worded, they present us with very real difficulty. It is no good talking about works of art in relation to valuations for this purpose. This is a decision which has to be taken at the time.
What is a work of art? I should have thought that this would be extremely difficult for anyone to define in the circumstances of the Bill. As I have said, it would be extremely difficult for works of literature. Again, it might create quite wrong impressions if particular bequests were made, for quite proper purposes, by an author. It might put some people to whom such bequests were made in an invidious position if this were provided as the only exception. I am not discussing the general merits behind the Bill and the opposition to it.
The second and alternative Amendment I concede at once recognises, in effect, the objections I make to the first Amendment. It represents an endeavour to reformulate the exception in more understandable terms. But again, what on earth does "any section of the public" mean? I should have thought that it would be the easiest thing in the world to prove that some disposition may be of interest to any section of the public. I cannot think of any disposition—it is only "may be"—'which would not come under the umbrella of
may be of interest to any section of the public".
To pursue the Amendment a little further —by reason of what? The Amendment says
by reason of its intrinsic value".
Intrinsic value means just value. That is all. I cannot imagine any bequest of any specific chattel which would be outside the ambit of the proposed Amendment.
I hope, therefore, that the Solicitor-General will rise, with patent neutrality, and tell us quite frankly how he sees the effect of the Amendments, or either of them. It would certainly help me, speaking as someone who hitherto has been equally neutral, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman could advise the House upon that matter. I do not know whether we can have an assurance from the promoter of the Bill that, if he accepts the general purpose of the Amendment, he will ensure that in another place he will see that more appropriate Amendments are inserted.

The Solicitor-General: A dark suspicion has, for the first time this day, entered my mind. The hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) may be a very skilled fisherman, a caster of flies, but he was going a little far when he rose and said that he wanted some guidance about what to do on this Amendment and then made the speech which he did. I speak for this purpose only as the Government spokesman. As the Government do not wish to express any view about this Amendment in any way, I am not in a strong position to assist the House.
I will venture to summarise the discussion by saying that, of course, the destination to which valuable works of

art go is a matter of great public interest, and it would be a disaster if they became lost to sight through some lack of information as to where they had gone. On the other hand, I should think it would be highly embarrassing to be a magistrate charged with the duty of deciding aye or no whether a criminal offence was committed when the criterion was governed by the vague factors contained in these Amendments. Such help I give, Mr. Speaker.

Sir B. Baxter: There has been a great deal of latitude and, I imagine, longitude in the debate which has taken place so far. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, I should like your guidance in allowing me to make a speech which I thought about this morning and which may not strictly be apropos the Amendments. If I may be allowed to read the opening paragraph, I shall probably finish much earlier than I should otherwise.
Hon. Members who read the leader column of the Daily Express this morning will have learned that we should be discussing a "foolish" Bill in the House today. That made me feel very sad this morning, but to some extent the prophecy, if not the spirit, of the Daily Express leader has turned out to be fairly accurate. The Bill certainly does not lack good intention, but it perhaps lacks a little of the skill of the expert.
Under the heading "Talking Point", there was this:
Never mind about happiness. Do your duty.
It is possible to do one's duty and be happy, but apparently the Daily Express thinks that to do one's duty is to do away with happiness. However, I am extremely fond of that newspaper—from time to time. I find myself ready to take the advice of his Lordship and his newspaper.
3.15 p.m.
It is too bad that in this Bill we have wandered too far from the point we all want. If we could have confined the debate, and the Bill, perhaps, to the publication of wills, that would have been an objective we might have attained.
Every day one picks up a morning or evening newspaper and sees the little story of somebody who has died leaving an estate of £12,000, £18,000, or £6,000, and there it is. The person concerned has


worked hard to establish a little position in his community and suddenly the covering is off and people say, "Ah, there he is". If a man dies and leaves £12,000 to his widow and children, I do not see what business it is of ours. It is, after all, part of the struggle of life. People try to create a good impression.
I understood, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that you would give me unusual latitude.

The Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Gentleman should struggle to keep to the Amendment.

Mr. James Griffiths: The hon. Gentleman had better quote the Daily Express again.

Sir B. Baxter: I want to come back to the Daily Express at the end, but I will deal with the Amendment, although it conveys nothing to me at the moment.
I want to add another phrase or two to the question of publication. This is rather good. In the theatre, the fourth wall is done away with and, by its abolition, we are able to see the failure and foibles, the comedy and tragedy, of the human story. That, however, is the theatre which, by its nature, is pretence. Why should the act of death in the world of reality resemble the fourth wall?

Sir L. Plummer: Is this the Daily Express?

Sir B. Baxter: No, it is mine, although it may become the Daily Express.
Why should the curtain be torn down so that not you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, but everybody else can peer through the window? That is the effect of the Clause. Quite apart from the humour, with which I am delighted, it is cruel and true. We should have concentrated more on that. If the Daily Express—this is the last time I shall mention it—believes in publishing wills, why should we not publish the incomes of people while they are alive?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We are dealing with works of art.

Sir B. Baxter: Obviously, you have never edited a newspaper. Sir. Many newspapers are works of art. However, you have been unusually patient, but it seems, to come back to the only logical point I want to put to you, that if we

had maintained the central idea of the abolition of the publication of wills that would have been a valuable contribution to the life of the country. It is rather a pity that we have gone into art galleries, highways and byways, and even Fleet Street. As the Bill is apparently not going through, I will give it my strong support.

Mr. J. Griffiths: Typically Daily Express.

Mr. Lipton: Like many other hon. Members present, I was deeply touched by the speech of the hon. Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter). There was one justification for his speech. He appeared on the scene as a late stage in our deliberations and it has been most unfortunate that we have not had the advantage of his advice earlier. Perhaps what he said was relevant to the extent that his remarks have now been preserved for posterity and may be regarded by future generations as a work of art, and enjoyed accordingly.
It was a little difficult to follow his argument, but he was not alone because the Bill is a jumble of illogicalities and it is therefore not surprising that an hon. Member like him, with his usually clear and analytical brain, should find himself arguing one way and deciding to act in another. That is the dilemma in which many of us have been placed all along. I hope that before we pass the Amendment we shall have further contributions from both sides of the House from those hon. Members who might be able to define a work of art and to what extent anything is of interest to anybody else.
It seems to me that that would open a subject which could be fruitfully discussed. We have few opportunities on the floor of the House to discuss artistic problems. The Amendment provides that opportunity. One way out of the difficulty of defining a work of art might be to refer questions of this kind to the Fine Art Commission, a body consisting of people of the highest possible repute and whose advice is treated with the utmost respect by Government Departments. It surprises me that neither the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) nor the hon. Member for Harrow, Central (Mr. Bishop) saw fit to include a reference to the Fine Art Commission, whose opinion would be of the


utmost value in helping us to decide on the practicability of the Amendment.
It is not my intention to delay proceedings this afternoon. Some hon. Members want to get on with the Bill, with all its faults. There are other Amendments which will require our attention and which are of even greater importance than this. I was wondering whether the hon. Member for Harrow, Central, having heard the various criticisms and other remarks made about his Amendment, would like to give the House the benefit of his summing up on the Amendment which he has so thoughtfully introduced on Report.
I hope that, as possibly there are other hon. Members besides the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey) who cannot make up their minds about it, we may have the opportunity of listening to a wise and final word from the hon. Member for Harrow, Central before deciding whether or not to divide on the Amendment.

Mr. Bishop: I can only respond to the invitation of the hon. Member for Brixton (Mr. Lipton) by leave of the House. In any case I do not intend to take up any more time on the matter, but simply to reply to the point that has been put to me.
I recognise the difficulty about defining what is a work of art or literature, and it may be that the House may feel that the difficulty is too great. I do not

know. I only wish to emphasise the point which I made. I hope the House realises that it was not the intention in this Amendment to describe a work of art or literature in qualitative terms at all, that is to say, not to suggest that the matter should be decided by what in the last resort may be the financial value of such a work.

I was much impressed by what was said by the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) on these matters. He thought that the second of the two Amendments was probably the better one to give effect to what was in my mind when I put down these Amendments, in that it defines the test in terms of a principle, namely, that the test should be something which is of interest to any section of the public by reason of its intrinsic value or historical, artistic or local associations.

Nothing that has been said in the debate changes my view that a newspaper ought not to be prohibited from publishing particulars of any bequest of that kind. Inasmuch as the first Amendment would probably be embraced by the terms of the second, I would be quite content, if that were what the House felt, to withdraw the first Amendment and to press the second Amendment. I am entirely in the hands of the House, and there I must leave the matter.

Question put, That those words be there inserted in the Bill:—

The House divided: Ayes 35, Noes 19.

Division No. 81.]
AYES
[3.30 p.m.


Bishop, F. P.
Irvine, A.J. (Edge Hill)
Peart, T. F.


Bottomley, Rt. Hon. A. G.
Jenkins, Robert (Dulwich)
Redhead, E. C.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Robens, Rt. Hon. A.


Courtney, Cdr. Anthony
Lipton, Marcus
Skeffington, A. M.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield, E.)
Lucas-Tooth, Sir Hugh
Stewart, Michael (Fulham)


Edwards, Robert (Bilston)
MacColl, J. E.
Storey, S.


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. James (Llanelly)
MacDermot, Niall
Teeling, W.


Griffiths, William (Exchange)
Mclnnes, J.
White, Mrs. Eirene (E. Flint)


Grimond, J.
Mitchison, G. R.
Younger, Rt. Hon. K.


Henderson, Rt. Hn. A. (Rwly Regis)
Mulley, F. W.



Herbison, Miss M.
Parkin, B. T.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Holman, P.
Partridge, E.
Mr. Kirk and Sir Leslie Plummet


Hunter, A. E.




NOES


Atkins, H, E.
Hobson, John(Warwick &amp; Leam'gt'n)
Studholme, Sir Henry


Baiter, Sir Beverley
Kimball, M.
Tilney, John (Wavertree)


Bennett, F. M. (Torquay)
Legh, Hon. Peter (Petersfleld)
Turner, H. F. L.


Channon, H. P. G.
Maddan, Martin
Wakefield, Edward (Derbyshire, W.)


Currie, G. B. H.
Prentice, R. E.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Finlay, Graeme
Russell, R. S.
Sir Charles Mott-Radclyfle and


Gammans, Lady
Sharpies, R. C.
Mr. Fisher


Hall, Rt. Hn. Glenvil (Colne Valley)

Mr. Bishop: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. May I not move the second of the two Amendments that were taken together?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No.

Mr. S. Storey: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Since the two Amendments were discussed together, is it not possible to have a Division on the second one?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is quite possible, but it is not going to happen.

Major Hicks Beach: I beg to move, in page 1, line 11, after "a" to insert:
bequest which the person so printing or publishing the particulars has reason to believe is a".
The purpose of this Amendment is to overcome a real difficulty over the definition of charities. There might be a prosecution under the provisions of this Bill, the defence to which was that the bequest, of which particulars have been published, was a charity. Therefore, we would reach the condition where the point at issue before the court was whether or not the bequest was a charitable one. On this point, during the Committe stage of the Bill an Amendment was moved by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Liverpool, Edge Hill (Mr. A. J. Irvine). who drew the attention of hon. Members to the difficulty of defining a charity, which has been shown by decisions of the courts over many years.
All I am seeking to do by this Amendment is to ensure that it will be a defence to a prosecution under the Bill where the person prosecuted can show that he had reasonable ground for believing that the bequest, particulars of which were published, was charitable. It is a simple issue but one of far-reaching importance, because gross hardship might arise. I was hoping very much that even at this late stage my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) would once again swing over to our side and say that he would be prepared to accept this Amendment. I notice with some interest that when this matter was discussed in Committee we did not have the benefit of a reply from my hon. Friend, so perhaps we may hear from him in detail why he is not prepared to accept this Amendment, which is put forward to overcome a real legal problem.

Mr. Teeing: I beg to second the Amendment.
We have heard from the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) how difficult it is to know exactly what a charitable bequest is. As there are so many lawyers present ready to talk on the subject, and as I am anxious to hear what the promoter of the Bill has to say about this Amendment, I merely second it and await his comments.

Mr. Kimball: It might be of help to the House if I say now that my hon. Friends and I are prepared to accept this Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. MacDermot: I beg to move, in line 14, to leave out from "authority" to the end of line 17.
The effect of this Amendment would be to leave out paragraph (b):
the amount or estimated amount of the estate of a deceased person or of any duty or estimated duty payable in respect of such estate;
The Bill as drafted proposes to prohibit, in effect, the publication of two things: first, the particulars of the will, with certain exceptions and, secondly, particulars of the amount or estimated amount of Estate Duty. Those two things are separate and there is no need for them to be considered interdependently. It would be perfectly logical to pass the Bill with paragraph (a) left in and with paragraph (b) taken out.
In the Amendment there are two points to consider: first, the amount of the estate; and, secondly, the amount of duty. On the question of the amount of estate, in my view this Amendment is an acid test of the true intention of the promoters and supporters of the Bill. We have been hearing a great deal about cases in which a man leaves a wife and dependants with a small estate of a few hundred pounds. That gets published in the papers and gives rise to undesirable gossip, which might lead to misrepresentations and misunderstandings as to the amount of the testator's bequest, what were the reasons for his bequest to a particular person, why someone was left out of the will, and so on. There may be good reasons for what the testator did which do not appear manifest on the face of the will.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), on Second Reading, gave an example of a bequest of £800 made by a testator to a daughter. The other parent was a serious invalid. There were other children who were left nothing and the whole estate of about £800 was left to one daughter. My hon. Friend said this gave rise to rumours and gossip that the other parent and children had been cut out because there had been family quarrels and this was done to favour the daughter, whereas, my hon. Friend told us, the true facts were that there had been a sort of family conference and, because the other parent was ill and was looked after by the daughter, it was thought best to give her the whole of the estate to manage as she was the best able to do that. This was given as an example of the kind of evil against which the Bill is directed.
3.45 p.m.
If paragraph (a) remains, but paragraph (b) is taken out, all the protection required for that kind of case is retained. Newspapers would not be allowed to publish particulars or the amount of any bequest to any particular person. They would not be allowed to publish who was the residuary legatee, the general inheritor, of the estate. What they would be allowed to publish, under the Amendment, is that the estate of someone who has died amounted to a certain figure and that Estate Duty of another figure was payable. Apart from the exempted particulars in paragraph (a), that is all that they would be allowed to publish.
I looked through the Second Reading debate to see what arguments, if any, were directed to paragraph (b) dealing with the publication of the particulars of the amount of the estate or the amount of duty. There were remarkably few arguments directed to that subject. Nearly all the arguments were concentrated on paragraph (a). I think that the reason is that whereas some substantial arguments can be put forward in support of paragraph (a), very little argument can be put forward in support of paragraph (b).
In moving the Second Reading the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Kimball) put up a cockshy which he then proceeded to knock down. He said that the Income Tax and Surtax authorities did

not need publicity about a man's income to be able to levy Income Tax and Surtax, and asked why the Estate Duty Office should require publicity to ensure that it obtained its just dues on a man's death. As far as I can recollect, that argument was not adduced by anyone in opposition to the Bill. No one suggested that it would in any way impede the Estate Duty Office in its work if the Bill were passed. That was merely putting up an Aunt Sally in order to knock it down, and it is no argument in support of the restriction of publication of the amount of the estate.
The hon. Member also brought to the attention of the House some representations which he had received from a former Liberal hon. Member in the Division which he represents that the publication of very large estates was often a matter of public interest. I do not imagine that any hon. Member would challenge that. It is a matter of the 'greatest public interest, and in my view it is also a matter of public importance, that we should have newspaper reports of the fortunes being accumulated and passing on the death of wealthy people. If it is in the public interest to know these facts, then it seems to me that strong arguments must be brought forward before we pass legislation which would prevent them from being published.
It was also suggested that the figures published are misleading, and this was perhaps the only argument directed to the support of this part of the Bill. It was explained that where application is made for the grant of probate of a will, there is a provisional assessment of the amount of the estate, which is sworn to by the solicitor handling the affair. For example, the estate may be provisionally assessed at £50,000 or £60,000.
At that stage a grant of probate is made. It is at that stage that the publicity takes place, because the agencies which examine the records at Somerset House and obtain particulars take the figure from that provisional assessment at the time of the grant of probate and that is the figure which is published, together with the original estimate of the amount of Estate Duty which will be payable.
It is true that it occurs quite frequently that when, finally, the whole estate has been got in it is found that that estimate is considerably in error. It is usually


an under-estimate. Usually, it is found that the value of the estate is greater than that which was published as being the provisional assessment. It is said that in those cases it is undesirable that people should be misled about the value of the estate.
I concede that there would be some force in that argument in a case where the name of the person to whom the estate was going were to be published because it could give a misleading impression of that person's means and wealth. We were given the example of the young daughter, the undesirable publicity about the poor little rich girl, as she was referred to on Second Reading. If her name is not to be published any more, and there is to be no mention of who she is, what harm can there be in a somewhat inaccurate figure being given? It is inaccurate only in the sense that it is not the accurate figure of the final value of the estate, but it is not published as being that.
Where it is only the estimate and only the provisional figure, that is stated in the newspapers as being what the figure is. In any event, it is usually an understatement. so no harm is likely to result from anyone thinking that whoever is to he the beneficiary or inheritor of the estate will receive more money than is the fact.
My own suspicion, which I expressed on Second Reading, is that one of the objects which the promoters of the Bill are seeking to achieve is to prevent publication of the fact that large estates are being devised and passing on at death. It is of the very greatest importance that people should be aware of that, so that they know the nature of our society. In these days we hear much about a property-owning democracy. We are told that the incidence of the ownership of property is being wider and wider spread. If it can never be possible to publish, when a millionaire dies. the fact that he was a millionaire and that a fortune of a million pounds, or whatever the fortune is, is being passed on, people can get a very misleading impression of the true nature of the society in which they live.

Mr. J. Hobson: All that information is published annually by the Inland Revenue authority in classification tables. It is possible to see exactly how many people

each year are in each Income Tax band and how much they pay.

Mr. MacDermot: One can see what the number is, but one does not know who they are. One does not know from what they have made their fortunes and what activities have been so profitable that when they die they are worth £1 million, and leave £1 million.

Sir L. Plummer: Or which of your constituents.

Mr. MacDermot: Again, when one comes to Estate Duty—this is an argument which may appeal, for different reasons, to hon. Members on both sides of the House—it is important that the public should know and have examples brought before it through the newspapers of the amount of money being paid by way of death duties. I know that some hon. Members opposite think that the sums are much too high—some of them think that they are outrageously high. Others of us. on the other hand, think that the levying of Estate Duty is one of the best ways we have of achieving the object—on which we all, presumably, agree—of ensuring that the ownership of property should become ever more widely spread.
There is another aspect that is of great public interest. Many people who are known to be exceedingly wealthy so arrange their affairs, these days, as to ensure that no substantial part of their fortune reaches the Inland Revenue when they die. They make various kinds of dispositions, and then they go a bit carefully for the next five years in the hope of surviving for that period. If they do survive, duty is not payable on those dispositions.
Again, it is of interest and importance to find that someone known to have been a very wealthy man, perhaps controlling important industries, has so arranged matters that only some quite small sum passes to the Inland Revenue by way of duty. If that continues to happen on an increasing scale—as it is—people may be led to think it desirable that we should so alter the law as to ensure that it is not so easy to escape the net and that when property passes to another generation a due proportion of it passes to the Estate Duty Office.
There is no way in which public interest in this matter can be aroused, or


in which public intelligence and information on the subject can be developed, unless the facts can be published. The Bill would prevent those facts being published. To my way of thinking, to that of some of my hon. Friends and, I am glad to see, to the way of thinking of many hon. Members opposite, that is another and major reason for saying that this is a bad Bill. It will be interesting to hear—and I shall now sit down so as to leave a minute or two for it to be done—whether the promoter of the Bill is prepared to accept the Amendment.

Sir L. Plummer: As time is running short, I beg formally to second the Amendment.

Mr. Kimball: We are all very sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Southgate (Sir B. Baxter) was not able to make his valuable contribution on this Amendment rather than to the previous one. The arguments he then used would have been very valuable now. I should also like to say how sorry we are that one of my principal supporters, the hon. Member for Bermondsey (Mr. Mellish), is missing. We would have valued his support today and we have missed him very much indeed.
Acceptance of this Amendment would undermine the whole principle of the Bill. In this debate we have, perhaps, rather lost sight of the simple purpose of the Bill. It is that the reporting of wills must be accurate. If we were to accept the Amendment the reports could not be accurate, as they would publish only half the truth about someone's will. That is a fundamental principle of the Bill, so it will be appreciated that I cannot possibly accept the Amendment.
Another very simple principle, and one that has certainly been forgotten, is that our purpose is to give to everyone who lives in this country the right to the same

privacy over their affairs when dead as they had when they were alive. It is important that no loopholes should be left, but they would be if the Amendment went through.
I will not refer now to the debate on Second Reading, but if the hon. Member for Lewisham, North (Mr. MacDermot) looks at column 784 of the OFFICIAL REPORT he will see that all these points were then very fully discussed. He has said that a probate figure is published as soon as probate is lodged, but is there a record of any paper at the end of, say, five or seven years, when eventually the value of a large estate is ascertained. publishing a correction—

Mr. MacDermot: The hon. Member himself quoted an example on Second Reading.

Mr. Kimball: I quoted it as an exception to the rule, but is it the general principle? I think that the hon. Gentleman would be forced to agree that it is not one of the general principles at present. If we succeed in ensuring a general practice of always reporting wills correctly, and reporting the true—

It being Four o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.

Debate to be resumed upon Friday, 8th May.

Orders of the Day — POLICE FEDERATION BILL

Read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Callaghan.]

Committee upon Friday next.

Orders of the Day — CRIMINAL JUSTICE ADMINISTRA TION AMENDMENT) BILL

Read a Second time.

Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House.—[Mr. Kimball.]

Committee upon Friday next.

Orders of the Day — FACTORY BUILDING, SUNDERLAND

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Brooman-White.]

4.3 p.m.

Mr. Frederick Willey: I wish to raise a question which affects my constituency, namely, the high incidence of unemployment and the need for more factory building.
I would say at once that I appreciate the reasons which have prevented the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade from replying to the debate, and I look forward to the reply by the Minister of State. I appreciate also that since I first raised this matter at Question Time, the situation has, in a sense, been recognised by the Government, because we are now a specially designated area under the 1958 Act.
In the first place, I should like to emphasise the need for such factory building and the serious concern that we feel in Sunderland owing to the rate of unemployment. This year our unemployment has exceeded the 5,000 mark and has touched 6 per cent. Fortunately—of course, we all welcome this—it has fallen during the past two months, and the March figure is 4,679. But that figure is 1,000 more than it was in 1951, and it is 50 per cent. more than it was last year when in March unemployed were 3,045. We have to remember also that in March, 1957, the unemployed were 2,521 and in 1956 2,202. I mention these figures because they show what has been happening in Sunderland over the past few years.
I would mention also that in Sunderland, as we have adjacent to us other areas which have a high rate of unemployment—in fact, Jarrow and South Shields are also specially designated areas, and there is a high level of unemployment in Hartlepool—our unemployed cannot seek work within easy travelling distance in neighbouring localities. We hope —and I trust that the Minister of State hopes also—that this unemployment is cyclic and that we can look forward to a further reduction in unemployment this year.
Apart from this unemployment, we are worried also about the danger of structural unemployment. We are still today as dependent on heavy industry, particularly shipbuilding and ship-repairing, as we were before the war. Various estimates that have been made both by Government Departments and by private industrialists have all indicated that unless we are extremely fortunate we shall face redundancy of several thousand within the next few years.
I would remind the Minister of State that we had 19,000 unemployed in 1939. which was a relatively good year, and we have had as many as 30,000 unemployed in Sunderland. I mention those figures not because we have any intention of talking ourselves into a depression—that is the last thing we want in Sunderland because of the experiences we have undergone before—but to impress on the Minister of State that our present rate of unemployment has naturally caused a good deal of apprehension and has emphasised our essential dependence upon the heavy industries.
It is against this background that we think that in recent years we have not always had a fair deal from the Government. We have had several projects—Boldon Airport, the abattoirs which have not yet been begun, and the River Wear Commissioners have had several projects which they were not able to proceed with. The fact is that we have not obtained any new major industry in Sunderland since the war. We had Bristol Aero engines—a very welcome acquisition to the town—but we have not had any new major industry and our share of the balance of new employment has never matched our share of unemployment.
I summarise this background by saying that the position in Sunderland is that we have unemployment running at about 5,000. although we hope that this will be only temporary. At the same time, in the not too remote future we believe that we may have to cater for redundancy which may well amount to 5,000 and which, in the light of various studies that have been made, is, I believe, a cautious figure.
Against that we have the present trading estate which has made a substantial contribution to the provision of new employment in Sunderland. But again


we must realise that the factory building was largely carried out in the years 1945–1950 and merely redressed the balance against Sunderland owing to the fact that during the war we were a vulnerable area and we did not get the new factory building which many other industrial centres got.
The position about the North Eastern Trading Estates Limited is that in 1951 it was employing 5,544 people. Today it is employing 5,027, which is 500 less, although I concede that we have to make allowance for Price's factory which was sold to Bryan Mills and no longer comes under the North Eastern Trading Estates. In any event, North Eastern Trading Estates now employs 400 less than in 1957. That may be again largely due to the factors which have affected the employment position throughout the country. However, I ask the Minister of State why more should not in fact be employed on the trading estate. I know the estimates that have been made about prospective and potential employment in the past. It seems to me that we should discard those estimates and that we should be more cautious about estimates of employment that is to be provided by new projects. It seems to me that we cannot reasonably expect the trading estates to provide employment for more than 5,000 or 6,000 people.
I call the attention of the Minister of State to an interesting factor which has affected employment in the trading estates. It is not altogether unwelcome, but is something to which we must pay attention. The estates now employ 800 more men than in 1951 but 1,300 fewer women. I mention this because in 1951 we took the view that we had made sufficient provision for the employment of women by way of new factories. It looks, however, as though now, in the light of what has happened on the trading estates, possibly we should review this and see whether more provision should not be made for the employment of women in Sunderland.
In the present situation, I also ask the hon. Gentleman to be particularly cautious in the sale of factories. I appreciate that the sale of Price's factory was in special circumstances, but I would not like the Government to be anxious to sell factories at present because this creates

the impression that they are less interested in development area policy.
Against the provision which has been made on the trading estates, we cannot avaid the conclusion that within the next few years we should seek to provide additional employment for about 5,000 people in Sunderland. It is for this reason that I am reviving a proposal, which I put forward in 1949, that we should provide in Sunderland a new trading estate. I put this forward now because today the Government are patently anxious to provide for capital development. The proposal which I put forward in 1949 received general acceptance and it was agreed that such a trading estate could be provided on the north bank of the River Wear.
We need such a site, especially in Sunderland, because there is no site in Sunderland at present which could be shown to any large industry with any hope of attracting such an industry to the town. We should try as far as possible to attract some new large enterprises to Sunderland.
We would need, possibly, a site of about 100 acres, but in putting forward this proposal I am not being so ambitious. The site on the north bank of the Wear is a 75-acre site but would provide only about 35 acres of factory building. This is a matter which has been previously considered. A working party from the former Ministry of Town and Country Planning believed the site to be the most satisfactory and a survey has been held at the site. I urge the Government to proceed at once with the preparation of the site and to ensure that in this way we are in a position to attract industrialists to Sunderland.
The site has become even more attractive in recent years because we have had considerable new housing on the north bank of the Wear. That is the proposal I make to the Minister of State. At the same time, I call his attention to the fact that the Sunderland Corporation is making a proposal to him about three sites which will amount in all to about 20 acres. The Corporation will be asking the hon. Gentleman to spend about £126,000 in developing these sites.
I concede at once that this alternative proposal should also be considered. I have on occasion put forward a third


proposal that we should build an advance factory or factories in Sunderland. What I am asking the Minister of State to recognise is that as Sunderland is at present, it is extremely difficult to make an attractive proposition to an industrialist to come there.
Finally, I call the attention of the Minister of State to the fact that the Sunderland Corporation has suggested that there should be a deputation from the Corporation—and I am glad to see associated with it the Secretary of the Chamber of Trade—to the Regional Controller of the Board of Trade and to the Chairman of the Trading Estate Co. I made the suggestion some time ago at Question Time that the Regional Controller of the Board of Trade might take the initiative in bringing together the local interests affected and the people concerned with Development Area policy. I now ask the Minister of State whether anything has yet been done. What we want is a deliberate effort to bring about a co-ordinated concern and awareness of the provisions of the Acts relating to the distribution of industry. We should deliberately try to encourage local initiative towards positive action and bring in as many people as possible. I mentioned the River Wear Commissioners. I think that the shipbuilders themselves should be brought in in these discussions, together with other Departments, such as the Admiralty.
I have no hesitation in putting forward this proposal for Sunderland, because, after all, the Government themselves, by the specially designated areas, have recognised that within the Development Areas there are at the moment special and particular problems. I would not mind if Sunderland were associated, if it were thought convenient, with Jarrow and South Shields. I want a recognition of the particular difficulties of Sunderland, and I want associated with any Government action the local interests themselves so that we can get a positive forward-looking view of the needs and requirements of the next few years.
In passing, I pay tribute to the Sunderland Echo, which at the end of the year produced an excellent supplement on the year's work. This at any rate helps in getting an overall view of the needs of Sunderland.
I particularly emphasise to the Minister of State that I feel that at present, in spite of the special provisions made for Sunderland, there is not sufficient knowledge of the provisions of the Distribution of Industry Acts and, in particular, not a sufficient knowledge, in spite of the action which the Board of Trade has taken, of the provisions of the 1958 Act.
I should like to give two illustrations to emphasise the importance of such knowledge. Recently, when I raised the question of shipbuilding, I mentioned credit facilities. Following that debate. representations were made to me about two orders which had been placed with France and an order which probably would have gone abroad also. My attention was also called to a prospective cancellation. This action was being taken on the ground of lack of credit facilities. I am glad that as a result of the debate an approach was made to the Admiralty and we obtained that order and avoided that cancellation. The lesson which I learned from that was that a better knowledge of the facilities available and of the attitude of the Government was obviously needed, even in shipbuilding circles.
The other illustration concerns Steel's Crown Works. I have just received representations that there may be fairly substantial redundancy at those works, of which we in Sunderland are very proud. They make Cole's cranes and have an excellent export record. I am told that here there is the possibility of a Government order coming to an end, which will create redundancy. This may reflect itself on costs and export prospects. Again, I doubt whether sufficient action has been taken in approaching the Government. I think that we should ensure that there is a better knowledge of the advantages which can be obtained from the provisions about development areas.
In conclusion, I hope that what I have said will evoke an instructive reply from the Minister of State. As I have said, we do not want to talk ourselves into a depression, but we recognise that we in Sunderland have special difficulties, and we want co-operation in overcoming them. The present position is that not only have we a higher rate of unemployment than we have had since the war, but there is


a general feeling that there is an absence of a Development Area policy and today a lack of the positive constructive approach made in the early years after the war. I am sure that I speak on behalf of everyone in Sunderland when I say that we are willing to do the best we can to overcome our difficulties, but in this we feel entitled to have the Government's full co-operation.

4.20 p.m.

The Minister of State, Board of Trade (Mr. J. K. Vaughan-Morgan): I am grateful to the hon. Member for Sunderland, North (Mr. Willey), who, incidentally, I welcome back from East Africa, for the very fair and restrained way in which he argued the case for more factories in Sunderland. I am grateful to him, also, for having given me advance notice of the points he intended to raise.
I think that I ought to start with an apology to the hon. Member. Normally, the Parliamentary Secretary would be answering this debate, because he is particularly concerned with unemployment, but he is in Wales at the moment. The President of the Board of Trade is engaged at a very important interview. Therefore, it falls to me to answer the debate.
The President of the Board of Trade intends to pay a visit to County Durham in June, but it is not yet certain whether his programme will allow a visit to Sunderland. Of course, if it does not, my hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary might be able to visit the area at a later date.
There is certainly no difference at all between the hon. Gentleman and the local authorities, on the one hand, and the Board of Trade, on the other, as to the objective at which we must aim, that is, the relief of unemployment. As he said, Sunderland was added on 10th March to the list of places for which financial assistance was available under the Distribution of Industry (Industrial Finance) Act, 1958. I give the hon. Gentleman credit for pressing us to do it earlier, but I assure him that we included Sunderland in the list as soon as the situation warranted our doing so by the standard which we use.
After all, we must have some objective standard if we are to act fairly between one place and another. We must face the fact that the Act would be frustrated if the standard were either so exacting that hardly anywhere could be helped or so lax that half the country was on the list and we could not concentrate our efforts on the places which really most needed them.
The D.A.T.A.C. list at present covers a little under 15 per cent. of the insured population of Great Britain and, of course, a much higher proportion of the unemployed. In our view, that is about the limit to which we should go if we are to help the worst places. Anyway, this is all past history, and Sunderland is now on the list. I hope that the D.A.T.A.C. facilities will prove of very real value to the town.
The hon. Member wants us to go further and be prepared to build factories in the area for letting to industry. I am only too ready to agree that over the last fourteen years Board of Trade factory building has been of great value to the Development Areas. The factories have given direct employment to nearly 200,000 people and, indirectly, have been of great value to very many more. Although we have power to build anywhere in a Development Area, we are exercising the power at present only in places where it is most needed. It is commonsense that we shall be less likely to induce industry to go to the remoter places, such as Dundee and Greenock, if more readily accessible alternatives are open to industry. That is why we have been deliberately restricting the scope of factory building more narrowly even than the D.A.T.A.C. assistance.
However, we are not rigid in our approach. Only recently we added North-East Lancashire, North Lanarkshire, and Merseyside to the areas where we are prepared to build. If the situation in any part of the North-East Development Area should justify it, we shall consider extending the exercise of our power to such a place.
We feel that Sunderland's need is not for new factories as such so much as for new industry. I am far from convinced that, even if we were prepared to negotiate with firms for building factories for their occupation, we should have many inquiries. There are now five empty


Government factories in the area surrounding Sunderland as well as a number of empty privately-owned factories. Here are empty factories. Why add to the number? What is lacking is not existing buildings, but firms anxious to expand, not tied to particular places and willing to move into new areas.
The revival of the economy, of which there are already evident signs and which we hope the Budget will stimulate, should result in a greater movement of industry, of which I hope Sunderland will enjoy its share.
I was very interested to hear of the proposal of the Sunderland Corporation to buy three sites for industrial purposes. I have seen a cutting from yesterday's Northern Echo which refers to this project. The hon. Member will not expect me to comment at this stage on a proposal for which we have not yet received an application, but I can assure the hon. Member that when it does reach us we will consider it carefully.
The hon. Member's suggestion that the Board of Trade should create a new trading estate in the Sunderland district goes a good deal wider. I appreciate his concern over the structural unemployment in Sunderland, and though I think that he is much too pessimistic in his estimate of its extent, I share his anxiety to ease the burden by finding some way of diversifying the pattern of Sunderland's industry.
I doubt whether the acquisition of another site on which Government factories can be built would have any effect in steering fresh industry to the area. There are now 14 empty factories on our industrial estates in the North-East Development Area—including the five I have referred to—and there is land in the Sunderland district zoned for industrial development. There are now also the inducements of D.A.T.A.C. for private building.
It is very doubtful whether the expenditure of public money in laying out another estate would be justified, but I emphasise that we have not set our faces against ever building in Sunderland. If we were convinced that this would materially help Sunderland's prospects of getting new industry, we should certainly be prepared to reconsider our attitude.
I should like to refer to one particular point about the threatened redundancy at Steel's Crown Works, in Sunderland, the firm that makes Cole's cranes, and here I come into my own. The firm exports about 40 per cent. of its production, so I give it a very good mark for that. I have been made aware that this firm is reorganising with a view to carrying through an even more aggressive selling policy at home and overseas. It is its intention to continue production to the fullest extent in its Sunderland works and if there is any redundancy it will be on a very small scale due only to a decline in sales of one or two of the firm's products. I should be sorry indeed to think that this firm, which employs over 2,000 workers, was reducing its activities in Sunderland, but I am confident that that is not the case.
The hon. Member referred to the placing of contracts. The House will appreciate that the Board of Trade, as such, cannot influence the direction in which Government Departments place their contracts, but there is a contracts preference scheme, operated by both Government Departments and nationalised industries, whereby a firm in an unemployment area can receive a preference over firms elsewhere, provided conditions are equal. We will give the firm in question further details, as I have come to the conclusion that this scheme is not as well known as it ought to be. We will also see what can be done as a result of further publicity in the Board of Trade Journal.
I want to endorse what the hon. Member said about co-operation between the Regional Controller, the North-Eastern Trading Estates Company and local authorities. We will certainly do all we can to give such authorities the fullest information as to available factories and sites, and we rely on them in their turn to spread the knowledge abroad.
As an example of this co-operation, the Wearside District Advisory Committee has been considering what more can be done to attract firms to the district. In the last resort it is for the towns and districts to sell themselves to industry and the efforts of the Corporation and of the District Advisory Committee are very welcome.
I should like to point out that much has been done for Sunderland in recent


years. Since the end of the war, 89 projects have given employment to more than 7,100 workers and schemes to provide employment for another 300 are planned or under way. Estimates are sometimes optimistic, but the figure of 7,100 is one of past achievement and represents 8 or 9 per cent. of the insured population. It represents a tremendous step towards diversifying industry in

Sunderland and I hope that that process will continue.
If I may end on a slightly less serious but none the less important note, I add the hope that Sunderland will get back to the First Division next year.

Question put and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at half-past Four o'clock.